Best smoke machine setup?? (Beginner)

[Guest]

Hello!
My school is currently working on an Adams Family production and the director/teacher wanted to get smoke machines for that extra graveyard effect and asked me for the research as Im on the lighting/backstage crew.

So with a budget of around 1000$ to fill an entire stage (stage is around 1/2~1/3 of a full on concert hall. My teacher said something like 3-4 on each side, making total 10-12 machines? I don't have experience with stage effects stuff but experience with stage lighting and audio..

What do you guys think is the best machine(s)

1. Fairly cheap

2. Fairly cheap to run

3. Not to big and bulky

4. If possible not too electrically demanding

5. SAFE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik_0Z46y6-g scared me)

 

Thanks in advance for all your advice!

[alistermorton]

Hi. If you're looking for that foggy graveyard effect, maybe you should be looking at low foggers, in the style of the venerable pea souper or glaciator. These use either dry ice  directly to create the "smoke" or a chiller to cause dense fog to remain low lying.

I'd be looking at hiring rather than buying, and there are plenty of options from the various manufacturrers, it's more a matter of what's available in your area. Speak to a proper, professional stage equipment hire company about low lying foggers. You don't say quite how big the stage is, but you will be quite surprised at the speed and volume of fog generation from a professional unit.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, alistermorton said:

Hi. If you're looking for that foggy graveyard effect, maybe you should be looking at low foggers, in the style of the venerable pea souper or glaciator. These use either dry ice  directly to create the "smoke" or a chiller to cause dense fog to remain low lying.

I'd be looking at hiring rather than buying, and there are plenty of options from the various manufacturrers, it's more a matter of what's available in your area. Speak to a proper, professional stage equipment hire company about low lying foggers. You don't say quite how big the stage is, but you will be quite surprised at the speed and volume of fog generation from a professional unit.

Thanks for your reply!

1. a. Not many shops in my area.  b. I asked, teacher said they would rather buy than rent because its easier and we can use it for many years (+what are our parents paying 15k$ a year for??)　also, its cheaper to buy our own in the long run based on rental houses

2. Def going to get low foggers. https://www.soundhouse.co.jp/products/detail/item/241337/ What do you think of that? Maybe 2 of these? Its in japanese: 85m^3/min    3min warmup    0.8l tank 80ml/min its 30k yen - around 200$? (costs around 150$ per 3 days if renting)

3. For general fog (maybe 2 units?) https://www.soundhouse.co.jp/products/detail/item/235993/ What do you think? Its a professional one. 1500w 707m^3/min 5min warmup   6.5l 120ml/min with DMX

 

P.S. Does fog output (m^3) matter? I chose 3. because it had most output for amount paying (also had DMX and big tank) 

[ImagineerTom]

The American DJ low fogger you linked to is just a regular smoke machine that has a (metal) bucket stuck on the front of it that you have to fill with Ice for it to actually work. You will need a LOT of ice and you should factor into your costings the ability and practicalities of obtaining and refilling several KG of ice potentially twice in every performance and rehearsal; it's a lot of ice and a lot of work. The effect produced is also mediocre at best.

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, ImagineerTom said:

The American DJ low fogger you linked to is just a regular smoke machine that has a (metal) bucket stuck on the front of it that you have to fill with Ice for it to actually work. You will need a LOT of ice and you should factor into your costings the ability and practicalities of obtaining and refilling several KG of ice potentially twice in every performance and rehearsal; it's a lot of ice and a lot of work. The effect produced is also mediocre at best.

Ohk thanks.. Any other suggestions for machines??

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by clownfish81

[Glyn Edwards]

34 minutes ago, clownfish81 said:

Ohk thanks.. Any other suggestions for machines??

 

Can you source Chauvet Cloud 9s? I've had good results from them, and they don't require ice or other external cooling.

[ImagineerTom]

There are several off-brand self contained fog chiller / low fog generator machines on the market but even the cheapest one I could find is over $1000 for a single machine and in a stage performance you need AT LEAST 2 (and personally I'd never use less than 3) of them because heavy fog is very susceptible to even slight air movement which can destroy the whole effect. 

 

Google "ultrasonic low fog machine" for your local options. Also note that whilst these machines are much easier to use in performance they do require looking after & maintenance. If they are not going to be used for a few days then you MUST completely empty and drain them otherwise they turn to rust very quickly.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Glyn Edwards said:

Can you source Chauvet Cloud 9s? I've had good results from them, and they don't require ice or other external cooling.

Yea I found them... except for the 3500$ price tag

 

2 minutes ago, ImagineerTom said:

There are several off-brand self contained fog chiller / low fog generator machines on the market but even the cheapest one I could find is over $1000 for a single machine and in a stage performance you need AT LEAST 2 (and personally I'd never use less than 3) of them because heavy fog is very susceptible to even slight air movement which can destroy the whole effect. 

 

Google "ultrasonic low fog machine" for your local options. Also note that whilst these machines are much easier to use in performance they do require looking after & maintenance. If they are not going to be used for a few days then you MUST completely empty and drain them otherwise they turn to rust very quickly.

Yea... I saw. These pretty expensive.

 

I think were just going to go with regular smoke machines for now

For general fog  https://www.soundhouse.co.jp/products/detail/item/235993/ What do you think? Its a professional one. 1500w 707m^3/min 5min warmup   6.5l 120ml/min with DMX

Are those ok?

Maybe 2 or 3 units

[themadhippy]

As your a school ask the science department if they have  some co2 lying about,added bonus they should know about using the stuff safely.Basically all you need is a container of warm water to slowly drop the solid co2 into,and maybe a fan to direct the fog

[ImagineerTom]

5 hours ago, clownfish81 said:

Yea I found them... except for the 3500$ price tag

 

Yea... I saw. These pretty expensive.

 

I think were just going to go with regular smoke machines for now

For general fog  https://www.soundhouse.co.jp/products/detail/item/235993/ What do you think? Its a professional one. 1500w 707m^3/min 5min warmup   6.5l 120ml/min with DMX

Are those ok?

Maybe 2 or 3 units

We can’t answer that question - there’s many different types of smoke machine that produce different types of smoke, different durations of smoke, in different orientations and for different purposes (from simulating a small campfire, through heavenly clouds, creating walls to hide action or an invisible haze that makes lighting look good but is invisible) so without knowing exactly what specific effects you want to achieve (and precisely what technological infrastructure you have) no one can give you meaningful advice about whether a particular machine is good as a “general” smoke machine. The original production used (from memory) 4 totally different types of smoke technology with multiples of each unit.

 

Imagine this was a forum about pens - you’re asking the equivalent of “I want to do some writing- is this a good pen to use?”  We might recommend a $1 biro but that would be completely wrong if you’re trying to do calligraphy, or if we recommended a sharpie that would be great for writing a label on a box but completely wrong if you were writing a 40,000 word essay. 
 

The way this works in professional productions is someone decides precisely what effects they want to achieve, then checks what the technical infrastructure in the theatre will be (does it have power in the right places, will the smoke be triggered by a stage hand hiding behind the prop, someone in the wings or maybe by the lighting control system?) and works out which style of smoke system will produce the specific effect needed. THEN the search begins for a machine that meets all these criteria and which is powerful enough / cheap enough / durable enough to meet the needs of the show. This is also why most producers rent smoke machines because something that’s great for one show would be completely useless for another. 

[Ynot]

Things to be wary of - some of which have already been covered:

'Smoke' is not really the effect you're probably looking for. In a theatrical situation, filling the stage at all levels with dense smoke is going to give you all sorts of issues with visibility and will affect lighting.

'Fog' is going to be a better term to look for and 'low fog' even better. Dry ice (CO2 granules dropped into heated water) is far and away the best visual option I've ever used, and although there are some machines on the market that can deliver a similar effect, it's not easy and they ain't cheap.

Chilled smoke can look OK, but you HAVE to use fast disperse fluid, else as soon as the fog warms up again it'll rise and create the problems mentioned above. And it'll warm up very quickly!!

Chilled smoke machines that use regular ice just never works well in my opinion mainly because it only chills the smoke to a much warmer level than CO2 - and if you're going to get CO2, then you may as well go the whole hog and do it the dry ice way.

Dry Ice machines are pretty simple and comparatively cheap to buy - Google Pea Souper for example. What puts the price up can be getting hold of the CO2 depends on whether there's a supplier near you (we get ours from about 45 mins away in insulated containers) - you'll need to work out how much you need in advance and have suitable storage for it - DO NOT use a working domestic fridge or freezer - you will wreck it. A dead one could be viable as an insulated box, (chest type best), but fill any empty space with packing to reduce the air trapped inside and the ice will last longer. If your show (incl rehearsals) lasts more than 2 or 3 evenings, then you'll need to get multiple deliveries.

Buying vs hire - unless your school envisages using ANY purchased gear on a very regular basis, it is ALWAYS best to rent what you need when you need it. Buying cheap is very often a false economy - especially in a school environment, where inexperienced hands mean incorrect care and maintenance.

As for quantity...
Whatever you end up using, it won't be anywhere near 12!! Depending on a) the size of performance space and b) type and level of effect needed you can manage with just one or two each side MAX - that's just from 2 sides, not three, as your post suggests.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, themadhippy said:

As your a school ask the science department if they have  some co2 lying about,added bonus they should know about using the stuff safely.Basically all you need is a container of warm water to slowly drop the solid co2 into,and maybe a fan to direct the fog

Thats an interesting DIY idea. Ill ask the science dep and teachers

2 hours ago, ImagineerTom said:

We can’t answer that question - there’s many different types of smoke machine that produce different types of smoke, different durations of smoke, in different orientations and for different purposes (from simulating a small campfire, through heavenly clouds, creating walls to hide action or an invisible haze that makes lighting look good but is invisible) so without knowing exactly what specific effects you want to achieve (and precisely what technological infrastructure you have) no one can give you meaningful advice about whether a particular machine is good as a “general” smoke machine. The original production used (from memory) 4 totally different types of smoke technology with multiples of each unit.

 

Imagine this was a forum about pens - you’re asking the equivalent of “I want to do some writing- is this a good pen to use?”  We might recommend a $1 biro but that would be completely wrong if you’re trying to do calligraphy, or if we recommended a sharpie that would be great for writing a label on a box but completely wrong if you were writing a 40,000 word essay. 
 

The way this works in professional productions is someone decides precisely what effects they want to achieve, then checks what the technical infrastructure in the theatre will be (does it have power in the right places, will the smoke be triggered by a stage hand hiding behind the prop, someone in the wings or maybe by the lighting control system?) and works out which style of smoke system will produce the specific effect needed. THEN the search begins for a machine that meets all these criteria and which is powerful enough / cheap enough / durable enough to meet the needs of the show. This is also why most producers rent smoke machines because something that’s great for one show would be completely useless for another. 

Will explaining what kinds of effects help?? 

 

1 hour ago, Ynot said:

Things to be wary of - some of which have already been covered:

'Smoke' is not really the effect you're probably looking for. In a theatrical situation, filling the stage at all levels with dense smoke is going to give you all sorts of issues with visibility and will affect lighting.

'Fog' is going to be a better term to look for and 'low fog' even better. Dry ice (CO2 granules dropped into heated water) is far and away the best visual option I've ever used, and although there are some machines on the market that can deliver a similar effect, it's not easy and they ain't cheap.

Chilled smoke can look OK, but you HAVE to use fast disperse fluid, else as soon as the fog warms up again it'll rise and create the problems mentioned above. And it'll warm up very quickly!!

Chilled smoke machines that use regular ice just never works well in my opinion mainly because it only chills the smoke to a much warmer level than CO2 - and if you're going to get CO2, then you may as well go the whole hog and do it the dry ice way.

Dry Ice machines are pretty simple and comparatively cheap to buy - Google Pea Souper for example. What puts the price up can be getting hold of the CO2 depends on whether there's a supplier near you (we get ours from about 45 mins away in insulated containers) - you'll need to work out how much you need in advance and have suitable storage for it - DO NOT use a working domestic fridge or freezer - you will wreck it. A dead one could be viable as an insulated box, (chest type best), but fill any empty space with packing to reduce the air trapped inside and the ice will last longer. If your show (incl rehearsals) lasts more than 2 or 3 evenings, then you'll need to get multiple deliveries.

Buying vs hire - unless your school envisages using ANY purchased gear on a very regular basis, it is ALWAYS best to rent what you need when you need it. Buying cheap is very often a false economy - especially in a school environment, where inexperienced hands mean incorrect care and maintenance.

As for quantity...
Whatever you end up using, it won't be anywhere near 12!! Depending on a) the size of performance space and b) type and level of effect needed you can manage with just one or two each side MAX - that's just from 2 sides, not three, as your post suggests.

Yep... definitely not 12 machines! Wayy too much. I think she was looking at those cheap 20$ machines on amazon.

 Ill look into renting again. Seems like a better option

 

Sorry for all the newbie questions! Im still new to this :)

Thank you all for the help so far

 

 

[Ynot]

1 hour ago, clownfish81 said:

I think she was looking at those cheap 20$ machines on amazon

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!

No machine costing $20 is going to last very long nor will it have any sort of useful value.

Surely there are rental companies in Tokyo??

 

[Guest]

.

Edited September 6, 2022 by clownfish81

[Guest]

Also can I rig the MISTER KOOLII with dry ice (theres a good supply of dry ice in the science labs) and use the Froggy low fog liquid (I saw someone doing this on youtube 

)