Best smoke machine setup?? (Beginner)

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Ynot said:

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!

No machine costing $20 is going to last very long nor will it have any sort of useful value.

Surely there are rental companies in Tokyo??

 

YES THOSE 20$ machines are KILLERS! It sends 240V to a tiny plastic switch in your hand using proprietary connectors. Imagine some kid accidentally plugging a handheld mic into the machine.... One way to end a musical!

There are 3 main rental companies. All of which has basically the same equipment for rent. A dry ice machine which is 22k for 3 days. Anatri smoke machine for 11k for 3 days ( the machine itself is like 35-55k) and a CO2 machine which I don't rlly want to use as the stage is small and suffocating actors isn't very fun

So yea.. Its cheaper to buy our own I think... School has the money anyways.

 

 

Also can someone describe and list the types of fog effects for reference?? I'm curious on what types they are but can't find much info (my googling isnt very good :( )

Or is there any decent low fogger for 500$ per machine? 

[ImagineerTom]

There are definitely more than 3 equipment rental companies serving Tokyo. A quick google suggests there’s lots more.

 

No there are no decent low fog machines to purchase for less than $500. 
 

you have two choices here-

1) have someone who doesn’t understand the technology abilities or requirements keep blindly googling machines and asking a website full of strangers to tell them if these machines are suitable for a show no-one on the board knows the production criteria and expectations for. Or 

2) follow the advice already given and work uut precisely what effects are required, how often and when, work out what the technical facilities available are and then ask for advice about how to solve those specific scenarios. 
 

Theatre effects equipment, as used by professionals is reliable and capable of producing precise effects & is really expensive to buy because of the high standards it has to be manufactured to. A $100 consumer smoke or effects machine isn’t going to be comparable or flexible as a $10,000 smoke or effects machine so you may well find that what you want to achieve might not be possible at all in the budget you have available if you insist on buying. 
 

 

[paulears]

I wonder how parents, who fund the school would feel with them, given the option to hire or buy would consider it money well spent. The trouble with these kinds of machines AT ALL PRICE LEVELS, is that they are NOT reliable, frequently clog, have a short shelf life for things like heaters and pumps when designs move on, and become the person who tries to repair thems hate. Most venues that use them have a graveyard of broken ones.

Those most popular big stage low smoke machine (The Glaciator) was a real pain (and still is for those who have to fix the damn things). You will use them very rarely, because the teachers hate them, the caretaker/building supervisors hate them, and for school use are 100% a hire in product. If your school do not have a hire policy for performing arts/music, ask why? Hire companies exist because the people who need the products think it cost-effective, and in a few years if you work in the industry, you will hire too.

In my view, and I am not a health and safety zealot, dry ice is a substance that should never leave a lab environment. It is dangerous, difficult to store, fails virtually every risk assessment unless amazing precuations are put in place, and it is NASTY stuff. Schools have some responsible mature students, but always some real idiots, and the protection of these fools and the people they put at risk is paramount.

The snag here is that you are a student. Everything you do is somebody else's responsibility, and Japan has very strict laws on the protection of children. If your teacher is not an expert on smoke, haze, fluids, chemicals and the law, (as most simply cannot be), you are heading for danger.

I wonder if the teachers has explored the conditions of your fire detection system. Smoke and haze requires very different smoke detectors, with the requirement to disable temporarily the fire alarm and evacuation system. Is the person in charge of safety going to be there every time you fill the place with smoke and the alarms start going off not just in your area, but everywhere doors and corridors lead to?

Low smoke is really hard to make work. What is great at rhearsal fails miserably when the audience are in and you get temperature inversions from the body heat and all your low smoke heads for the audience, making the entire stage area vanish.

Schools and smoke really mean finding a competent adult to manage it properly, and that might not be the teacher, and certainly not the students.

Pulling a $1000 smoke machine out of the store after 3 months and turning it on can be dissapointing when it coughs, chugs and produces no smoke at all. Some poor devil has to strip it down clean it and hope the pump fires up. Refrigerent units need periodic regassing and hate being moved roughly. You might also have not noticed what aircon you have? Can you switch it off to get still air? Does it have smoke detection, will your smoke shut down the entire facility? These problems are not your call, and probably not even your teacher's. Students are responsibility-less. It is ALWAYS somebody else who takes the blame.

 

Treat the people who are telling you no as correct - we have been doing this topic for 30 years. Nothing has changed apart from the students who got grumpy may now be the teachers saying no to others.

 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, paulears said:

I wonder how parents, who fund the school would feel with them, given the option to hire or buy would consider it money well spent. The trouble with these kinds of machines AT ALL PRICE LEVELS, is that they are NOT reliable, frequently clog, have a short shelf life for things like heaters and pumps when designs move on, and become the person who tries to repair thems hate. Most venues that use them have a graveyard of broken ones.

Those most popular big stage low smoke machine (The Glaciator) was a real pain (and still is for those who have to fix the damn things). You will use them very rarely, because the teachers hate them, the caretaker/building supervisors hate them, and for school use are 100% a hire in product. If your school do not have a hire policy for performing arts/music, ask why? Hire companies exist because the people who need the products think it cost-effective, and in a few years if you work in the industry, you will hire too.

In my view, and I am not a health and safety zealot, dry ice is a substance that should never leave a lab environment. It is dangerous, difficult to store, fails virtually every risk assessment unless amazing precuations are put in place, and it is NASTY stuff. Schools have some responsible mature students, but always some real idiots, and the protection of these fools and the people they put at risk is paramount.

The snag here is that you are a student. Everything you do is somebody else's responsibility, and Japan has very strict laws on the protection of children. If your teacher is not an expert on smoke, haze, fluids, chemicals and the law, (as most simply cannot be), you are heading for danger.

I wonder if the teachers has explored the conditions of your fire detection system. Smoke and haze requires very different smoke detectors, with the requirement to disable temporarily the fire alarm and evacuation system. Is the person in charge of safety going to be there every time you fill the place with smoke and the alarms start going off not just in your area, but everywhere doors and corridors lead to?

Low smoke is really hard to make work. What is great at rhearsal fails miserably when the audience are in and you get temperature inversions from the body heat and all your low smoke heads for the audience, making the entire stage area vanish.

Schools and smoke really mean finding a competent adult to manage it properly, and that might not be the teacher, and certainly not the students.

Pulling a $1000 smoke machine out of the store after 3 months and turning it on can be dissapointing when it coughs, chugs and produces no smoke at all. Some poor devil has to strip it down clean it and hope the pump fires up. Refrigerent units need periodic regassing and hate being moved roughly. You might also have not noticed what aircon you have? Can you switch it off to get still air? Does it have smoke detection, will your smoke shut down the entire facility? These problems are not your call, and probably not even your teacher's. Students are responsibility-less. It is ALWAYS somebody else who takes the blame.

 

Treat the people who are telling you no as correct - we have been doing this topic for 30 years. Nothing has changed apart from the students who got grumpy may now be the teachers saying no to others.

 

Thanks for the advice. Ill explain to the teacher that the smoke part is risky and we should call it off or hire a professional.

Thanks! 

[Jivemaster]

Look at every other way of causing your audience to think fog or mist. Look at how you can light something for maximum effect (typically backlight makes a little fog look like more fog)

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Jivemaster said:

Look at every other way of causing your audience to think fog or mist. Look at how you can light something for maximum effect (typically backlight makes a little fog look like more fog)

Thats smart. Ill look into it!

[Jivemaster]

You could get a better answer if you tell us the dimensions of your stage and the nature of the effect required. Remember that big stage effects cost LOTS of money both in equipment costs and in consumable costs. As a school you probably don't have big money to throw at effects..

[Guest]

2 effects needed

The low smoke graveyard sorta effect

And stage filling smoke (exactly like the top part of the photo)

And sometimes together like the photo

 

Stage size... I dont have the exact dimensions but  its a 700 seater and my guess is 200-250m^3 for stage floor size considering the whole thing is 800m^2 and the stage takes 1/3-1/4 of the whole space

The effects don^t have to last too long. Low smoke scene lasts 10-15 min and if I remember correctly.

Electrical wise, max 40A @ 100v per circuit. The facility has 4 near the stage.

Edited September 6, 2022 by clownfish81

[kerry davies]

Cyrus, I can't give you technical answers but you raised a smile with "the fees are $XXX so the school can afford it." U2 aren't exactly short of cash and they hire them. That way they don't have to maintain them and if they break the hire company replaces them. To justify expenditure, especially on environmental terms, you really need to be using kit on a regular basis and as ITom writes, stuff that is lying around always seems to degenerate faster than kit in use. 

The main reason I used to hire is that once you buy something you are stuck with it and to get the full range of mist, smoke, dry-ice, haze effects you would need to buy lots of different bits and bobs while you only hire what you need, when you need and where it is needed. You can also hire or borrow different ones to try out if, like you, you aren't sure exactly what you need. 

"Filling the stage with smoke" might be too dangerous. As the security fogger boys say; "Can't see it? Can't steal it!" A cast and crew wandering about fogged out is not a good idea and s/he may be thinking of haze but as others have said a smoker each side downstage with backlight might be what s/he wants. Theatre audiences also insist on outbreaks of psychosomatic coughing which the very same people in a club or concert do not do. 

[kitlane]

If you want some general information on 'fog' effects then I recommend you look the ESTA publications  "Introduction to Modern Atmospheric Effects, 6th edition" and "ANSI E1.23 - 2020 Entertainment Technology -- Design, Execution, and Maintenance of Atmospheric Effects". You can download these from the ESTA Technical Standards Program Website.

https://tsp.esta.org/tsp/documents/published_docs.php

Type 'atmos' into the search box.

When I read your original post asking for a 'graveyard' effect, the last thing I pictured was half a dozen pea soupers pumping out clouds of low fog. That will just look like a cheesy 80's pop video. In my mind, you need a more subtle effect of wispy low lying mist. Same technology, but more subdued. Or hide a few ultrasonic mist generators behind the gravestones. 

10-15 minutes of a fog effect is not a short time. Whatever your consumables are, it will use a lot of them. 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, kerry davies said:

Cyrus, I can't give you technical answers but you raised a smile with "the fees are $XXX so the school can afford it." U2 aren't exactly short of cash and they hire them. That way they don't have to maintain them and if they break the hire company replaces them. To justify expenditure, especially on environmental terms, you really need to be using kit on a regular basis and as ITom writes, stuff that is lying around always seems to degenerate faster than kit in use. 

The main reason I used to hire is that once you buy something you are stuck with it and to get the full range of mist, smoke, dry-ice, haze effects you would need to buy lots of different bits and bobs while you only hire what you need, when you need and where it is needed. You can also hire or borrow different ones to try out if, like you, you aren't sure exactly what you need. 

"Filling the stage with smoke" might be too dangerous. As the security fogger boys say; "Can't see it? Can't steal it!" A cast and crew wandering about fogged out is not a good idea and s/he may be thinking of haze but as others have said a smoker each side downstage with backlight might be what s/he wants. Theatre audiences also insist on outbreaks of psychosomatic coughing which the very same people in a club or concert do not do. 

1. "Filling stage with smoke" wasn't the correct words sorry (english isn't my first language 😞 ) I meant more like in the picture in that post. Not filling, but misty hazy sort of vibe

2. Yea. Hire seems like a better idea. Ill go and try to convince teacher again...

3 minutes ago, kitlane said:

If you want some general information on 'fog' effects then I recommend you look the ESTA publications  "Introduction to Modern Atmospheric Effects, 6th edition" and "ANSI E1.23 - 2020 Entertainment Technology -- Design, Execution, and Maintenance of Atmospheric Effects". You can download these from the ESTA Technical Standards Program Website.

https://tsp.esta.org/tsp/documents/published_docs.php

Type 'atmos' into the search box.

When I read your original post asking for a 'graveyard' effect, the last thing I pictured was half a dozen pea soupers pumping out clouds of low fog. That will just look like a cheesy 80's pop video. In my mind, you need a more subtle effect of wispy low lying mist. Same technology, but more subdued. Or hide a few ultrasonic mist generators behind the gravestones. 

10-15 minutes of a fog effect is not a short time. Whatever your consumables are, it will use a lot of them. 

Ill read through those documents tonight.

Yea 12 in the initial post is wayy to much now I understand.

Whats the difference between dry ice machines and smoke chillers that use dry ice? 

Consumables isn't too much of a problem. Science lab has a good supply of dry ice and school building is conveniently placed 30 seconds walk away from the hall. Fog liquid,, I guess ask the school to buy more?? 🤷‍♂️

[Ynot]

10 hours ago, clownfish81 said:

Also can I rig the MISTER KOOLII with dry ice ...

You can, but as I mentioned above, that effect has its limits.

Another thing to bear in mind is that in that video, the guy is running it in his living room which is unlikely to be as potentially warm as a concert hall full of people and theatre lights - and presumably HVAC stirring the air. So the low-lying effect he shows - which is also very thin, both in content and height off the ground - is unlikely to last very long. And you have to run the smoke at a slow output so that the ice has chance to actually cool it enough to be anywhere near that effect so volume over a large space with those is not going to be practical.

I've used a couple of those ADJ type machines in the past with plenty of ice cubes, or even freeze-paks and they've never really delivered anywhere near a satisfactory effect. Not tried it with CO2, but if you have dry ice, then use that for the proper effect - although make sure that's done by a faculty member or responsible adult who's been made aware of the simple safety rules for handling CO2.

 

[Ynot]

25 minutes ago, clownfish81 said:

1. "Filling stage with smoke" wasn't the correct words sorry (english isn't my first language 😞 ) I meant more like in the picture in that post. Not filling, but misty hazy sort of vibe

Then what you need to look at is (not surprisingly) a HAZE machine for that 'hazy vibe'

[Ynot]

26 minutes ago, clownfish81 said:

Whats the difference between dry ice machines and smoke chillers that use dry ice? 

Consumables isn't too much of a problem. Science lab has a good supply of dry ice and school building is conveniently placed 30 seconds walk away from the hall. Fog liquid,, I guess ask the school to buy more?? 🤷‍♂️

We've already covered this but to clarify:

Pukka dry ice low fog effects will 100% achieve that low lying mist rolling in over the gravestones effect, and is very likely to be the cheapest option to get that effect, especially if your school's supply of CO2 is enough to do the job. Dry ice will NOT rise as it warms up - it just evaporates into nothing.

Smoke is by nature going to rise once it loses the chill applied by whatever cooling mechanism you employ. Fast disperse fluid will react in a similar way to dry ice, in that it too will disappear before it gets too high, but that again depends on the atmospheric conditions in your venue.

Safety wise, yes, CO2 is a nasty substance to handle, and MUST be used with care - as I mentioned, by a responsible adult who's been shown how to do so safely. I'm not quite as paranoid as Paul on this one, although would most definitely be more so if I thought that the operation of pea soupers was being left to students... 😮

 

[Ynot]

9 hours ago, clownfish81 said:

All of which has basically the same equipment for rent. A dry ice machine which is 22k for 3 days. Anatri smoke machine for 11k for 3 days ( the machine itself is like 35-55k) and a CO2 machine which I don't rlly want to use as the stage is small and suffocating actors isn't very fun

What currency are you quoting in here? You started off talking $$, so renting any sort of kit at $11,000 is pretty astounding!!

But on the question of suffocating actors with CO2, that's unlikely, IF the proper safety guidance is followed. CO2 hugs the floor, so unless your performers are laying down, they won't be anywhere near anything that will deprive them of breath.

I'm also slightly confused as you initially said that the venue was a good sized concert hall.. So how big IS your stage??