Armouries cupboard

[ImagineerTom]

For some reason, this seems rather apt..... My link

[the kid]

But it is not just stage crew having access! Numerous times I have had public appear in a space for no reason, that is what happens in a open 120year old building, or when an incoming company in a 5 year old building with code locks props a door open with a stage weight.

 

It is less about being a dick and walking about with it, more protecting everyone around you and who might come in to contact with you from harm as well.

 

Have you ever been stopped by the police when carrying a blade? a locking blade? It's not fun.

[Robin D]

I could also reinforce advice here that has perhaps become hidden in some of the detailed discussions.

 

Speak to the police before it becomes an issue, rather than when it becomes an issue. Contact your local police (safer neighbourhood team is often a good place to start). If needs be, they will take specialist advice, or point you in the right direction. Believe it or not, they would rather take a decision and give advice in the cold light of day rather than have to make that decision after dark and without knowing the intentions of the person carrying said 'weapon'.

 

Have you ever been stopped by the police when carrying a blade? a locking blade? It's not fun.

No... but I have been stopped by armed police after someone saw a toy 'Luger' gun in my glove compartment that I had open outside a bank as I have just taken the night safe wallet out of it and deposited in said bank. The 'gun' had been removed from a child in the back who insisted on shouting 'bang' when I was trying to drive a few days before. OK, it was 30+ years ago, but it still wasn't funny being pulled off the old A11 and told to exit the car with my arms high in the air with two live guns pointing at me.

[top-cat]

But it is not just stage crew having access! Numerous times I have had public appear in a space for no reason, that is what happens in a open 120year old building, or when an incoming company in a 5 year old building with code locks props a door open with a stage weight.

 

Oh this is getting ridiculous, the arguments presented here are just silly now.

 

There is clearly a difference between having an armoury in a theatre and locking something away in an office where unauthorised people can't get at it. At no point did I suggest leaving it on the coffee table in the crew room unde a pile of old copies of the sun.

 

I am sure if you treat replica firearms the same way you treat your pyro then it will come to no harm. I'm not saying you don't need to be responsible where you put it. But a cupboard in a locked office will be ample. It doesn't need to be in a gun cabinet.

 

As for transporting it, again, treat it like pyro or cash. Put it in a safe place, where you can't grab it in a hurry, clearly marked with the contents, and some proof that you are working on a show with weapons in. The police don't make a habit of stopping and searching cars for the hell of it. But if they do, and they find it in a clearly marked box with a legit reason for having it, you'll be treated no differently to somebody carrying a machete or a chainsaw.

 

I have a deact AK47 in my home and nobody has ever been shot because of it. I keep the house locked (as you would expect) and I don't walk around with it for the giggles. And it's all good. I also used to do a monthly drive to ranges with 40 fully functioning assault rifles in the back and not get any hassle. So I really do honestly think this is being over dramatised.

 

Surely we are all adults with common sense? That is all the qualification you need, and if you are sensible with it and keep in mind the way that your actions could be interpreted, not the way that they are meant, and be sensitive to the UK's current affairs with regards to gun crime, and you will be fine.

[Simon Lewis]

There does appear to be some form of tension between the various firearms acts and the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006, especially between a "deactivated weapon" and a "realistic imitation weapon"?

 

Of course, the police might well accept the "sensible theatre practitioner" argument from someone they stopped for a minor infringement, but could get rather edgy if they found an assault rifle hanging up at home?!

[paulears]

I would really, really love to see Top-Cat stopped by the police and when they open the boot, pull out his AK47 - and then explain to the Policeman that "Saying "just so you are aware, I have a realistic imitation firearm in the boot, I am a technician on a theatre tour and we use one in the show" and here is my paperwork.

 

My point is that the average policeman, in this day and age will not take the chance. People with licensed sporting weapons carry the right documentation - but your deactivated weapon will be taken off you and given to somebody from the firearms unit to make the decision on it's legality. Attempting to negotiate with a police officer on something they are not completely sure of means a trip to the station. I've seen a casual acquaintance have a radio snatched from him by a plain clothes officer, and accused on the spot of stealing a 'Police Radio'. He was not happy at all and there was a tug of war. In the end a police car arrives and bundles him into the back. I get taken too because I'm with him. He's really annoyed and behaving pretty badly. At the Police station I point out he has a license, and actually sells and hires these units and they are just the same model as the one the Police use in the area. Eventually he gets our and gets the radio back. If they do this over a radio - and I can understand why they grabbed him, it is obviously going to happen when they find a gun!

 

The Police are not experts - like me! It's illegal to use a mobile why driving, but it is NOT illegal to use a two-way radio while you are driving. So taxi drivers are safe. They can be reported for driving without due care and attention, but unless the have an accident, that's unlikely. You can bet people have been mis-reported for that too!

[top-cat]

It's just not true. The police don't arrest anybody who has a firearm of any sort in their car. Especially if you are sensible about it, show them proof that it's a dud (which in many cases can include showing that all working parts are welded up and that the barrel is full of holes).

 

But as I said - why have the police stopped you in the first place? Why are they searching your car? They don't just drive around all day looking for theatre technicians who might have imitation firearms in the boot! There are these nasty people in the world called criminals and the 5-0 tend to favour going after them, than techs with welded up revolvers in the car.

 

If everybody moving firearms was going to be arrested then nobody would do it. It's that simple. The police are not the senseless idiots you portray them as. The radio thing must have been a long time ago, they've been on Airwave for at least a decade which is a proprietary system for the blue light and armed services and is secure thus can't be bought by anybody.

 

 

Of course, the police might well accept the "sensible theatre practitioner" argument from someone they stopped for a minor infringement, but could get rather edgy if they found an assault rifle hanging up at home?!

 

Not at all. Mine isn't for theatre. It's for show on my wall. It was a gift (appropriate given the person who gave it and my relationship with them). I don't need an excuse to have it on my wall. Having a deactivated firearm on your wall because you want it on your wall is completely legal.

 

A friend of mine has a deactivated sidewinder air to air middle hanging from his workshop roof, which is also completely legal.

 

I have the required documentation, the required stamps on the weapon, and in any doubt I can demonstrate that it is incapable of firing anything.

 

Contrary to certain people's belief here, you can go into any of the many militaria shops in the UK, buy a deact firearm, put it in the boot of your car and drive home with it. Again, if pulled over for some reason, your receipt to show you just bought it and are taking it home will serve as perfectly valid evidence that your possession of it is legal.

[Ynot]

OK.

 

Wading in here a little after watching the topic develop.

 

TC - I think what you need to bear in mind is that not everyone who buys a deactivated weapon (with or without paperwork, because I'm aware that there is not in fact a law which states that there IS a set and specific document that must be completed for this) will do so with benign intentions. It MAY be that the buyer does so with some criminal intent and history has shown that robberies HAVE taken place when fake weapons are involved.

 

The problem is that the police will be ignorant of the person's intent until proven otherwise - that's not to say that they're stupid - far from it. But they DO have a responsibility to act with caution in every case. And if a vehicle is stopped for ANY reason and they have due cause they DO have the right to search individuals and the vehicle. And to be pretty blunt, regardless of any paperwork or lack thereof, if they find ANY sort of weapon, real, fake, whatever, I can easily see them taking the matter up at the station rather than taking the risk at the side of the road. What happens at the station/wherever is very likely going to depend more on the attitude and manners of the individual transporting it. yes, paperwork may very well help, BUT my guess would be that even with that, the Bill would certainly want to verify that properly, which could potentially take some time.

 

I have to admit to a little incredulity to your earlier statement though...

 

I also used to do a monthly drive to ranges with 40 fully functioning assault rifles in the back and not get any hassle

 

Seriously?? Firstly, WHY on earth would you be transporting 40 assault rifles at ANY time?

 

But I guess the reason you didn't have hassle would be that you didn't do anything to attract the attention of the police, and thus they were blissfully ignorant of your situation. However, had they for ANY reason needed to pull you over (eg faulty lights, speeding, etc) and, say, found your Leatherman in the door pocket then I would suggest that that would be clear grounds for them to request to see the rest of the vehicle (which I'm guessing would have to be a small to medium van to transport that many weapons in suitable casing). And on opening the back of your van and finding even ONE assault rifle let alone forty would I can pretty much guarantee would result in at minimum a roadside detention and potentially a call for Trojan backup. You may think that would be overkill, but considering what's been happening in recent years I'd not be so sure.

 

 

 

 

 

[musht]

Drive through South Central, er, Aberdeen...

 

http://news.stv.tv/north/283070-armed-police-policy-faces-further-questions-after-driver-questioned/

 

Seem to remember previous advice about handling weapons in the theatre was to arrange a `familiarisation` session with the cast and crew , where the weapons could be handed round and people could have a look and satisfy any curiosity about them, after that the weapons are stored in a locked area and retrieved by a nominated person who brings them to the stage for their appearance and returns them immediately to storage, then no need apart from nominated person and involved cast to touch the items.

[top-cat]

TC - I think what you need to bear in mind is that not everyone who buys a deactivated weapon (with or without paperwork, because I'm aware that there is not in fact a law which states that there IS a set and specific document that must be completed for this) will do so with benign intentions. It MAY be that the buyer does so with some criminal intent and history has shown that robberies HAVE taken place when fake weapons are involved.

 

I think you may be confusing imitation firearms and de-activated firearms. There is no certificate required for an imitation firearm as it has never had the capacity to shoot anything. There is a certificate required for a de-activated firearm, as it has once had that capability, and the certificate proves that it no longer has that capability. To quote the home office guide to firearms:

 

 

Section 8 of the 1988 Act provides that, unless it can be shown otherwise, a firearm which has been de-activated to a standard approved by the Secretary of State, so that it is incapable of discharging any shot, bullet or other missile, is presumed not to be a firearm within the meaning of the 1968 Act and therefore is not subject to control if it bears a mark approved by the Secretary of State for denoting that fact. The 1988 Act requires that one of the two Proof Houses or some other person approved by the Secretary of State has marked the firearm and certified in writing (that is, provided a certificate) that it has been de-activated to the approved standard. No other person has been approved for this purpose.

The problem is that the police will be ignorant of the person's intent until proven otherwise - that's not to say that they're stupid - far from it. But they DO have a responsibility to act with caution in every case. And if a vehicle is stopped for ANY reason and they have due cause they DO have the right to search individuals and the vehicle. And to be pretty blunt, regardless of any paperwork or lack thereof, if they find ANY sort of weapon, real, fake, whatever, I can easily see them taking the matter up at the station rather than taking the risk at the side of the road. What happens at the station/wherever is very likely going to depend more on the attitude and manners of the individual transporting it. yes, paperwork may very well help, BUT my guess would be that even with that, the Bill would certainly want to verify that properly, which could potentially take some time.

 

Your point is valid but perhaps we are over thinking this somewhat.

 

If you keep imitation firearms in your theatre, you should not have to frequently move them out of the theatre. I see no reason to take them home or elsewhere. Of course, a touring production moving an imitation firearm from venue to venue is going to have to move them more often. But on the whole, we aren't going to have to move them very often.

 

And then, when we do move them, if we drive like sensible drivers in road legal cars, we should not be pulled over by the police. And if we are pulled over for our driving standards or road worthiness of the car, it should be an even rarer occasion that the police ask to carry out a search of the vehicle.

 

So the chances of this situation where the police find a de-act or imitation firearm in your car - are very low. And perhaps if it happens to you once or twice in your entire career (which would be quite unlucky) you could write off the visit to the police station as a necessary evil in keeping our country safe. But really, we're basing all this advice on a situation which is very unlikely to arise in the first place. I bet if you did a poll on here called "how many BR members have had their car searched by the police" the answer would be very, very few - and that would most likely account for thousands of journeys by thousands of drivers - so millions of individual journeys, and I honestly bet the number of searches of the car would be less than 100...

 

Does that not make any sense?

 

Honestly, you guys are making it sound like it is going to happen. It's clearly not to be assumed. It might happen, if you're very unlucky. And my original point against Paul's was that even if it does, and they do want to discuss it further at the police station rather than at the road side, you will not be manhandled and cuffed - if you have declared it and explained why you have it (as I advised). It'll be a civilised "we want to have this checked by a specialist" kind of conversation, not a 'you're nicked' kind of conversation.

 

 

I have to admit to a little incredulity to your earlier statement though...

 

I also used to do a monthly drive to ranges with 40 fully functioning assault rifles in the back and not get any hassle

 

Seriously?? Firstly, WHY on earth would you be transporting 40 assault rifles at ANY time?

 

Yes, seriously. Why? So that 40 people could shoot weapons on the range that day. Everybody has their own.

 

But I guess the reason you didn't have hassle would be that you didn't do anything to attract the attention of the police, and thus they were blissfully ignorant of your situation. However, had they for ANY reason needed to pull you over (eg faulty lights, speeding, etc) and, say, found your Leatherman in the door pocket then I would suggest that that would be clear grounds for them to request to see the rest of the vehicle (which I'm guessing would have to be a small to medium van to transport that many weapons in suitable casing). And on opening the back of your van and finding even ONE assault rifle let alone forty would I can pretty much guarantee would result in at minimum a roadside detention and potentially a call for Trojan backup. You may think that would be overkill, but considering what's been happening in recent years I'd not be so sure.

 

 

As you've alluded to - yes, if you give the police no reason to stop you, then they probably won't stop you. Finding a leatherman in the door pocket is probably not a vehicle searching offence. A bag of cannabis in the door however, definitely is. So playing devils advocate, if they'd found a bag of cannabis in the door pocket and conducted a search. We would have notified them that we were shooters and transporting weapons to the (XYZ) range. We would show paperwork to prove that we were attending a range, we would prove where we had come from, and use a road map to prove that the road we were on was a direct route between where we had come from and the range we were going to. We would raise paperwork to prove that the people in the vehicle were legally authorised to be in possession of those weapons. We would demonstrate that the weapons were stored in the vehicle in line with legal obligations for transporting weapons in a vehicle. We would demonstrate that ammunition was not stored in the same vehicle as the weapons.

 

You can guarantee it can you? That's a bold statement. I think you will find that actually, responsible shooters with a proven legal right to be in possession of those weapons, with all the right paperwork / documentation to back that up and back up the reason for carrying them; carrying them in a manner approved by the law, will be allowed to go on their way. This is the very reason that the documentation is done and that those involved with handling weapons are given specific guidelines on how to store and transport them legally and safely.

 

You may still think that guns are killers and will always incur a huge police response. This is not the case and for people like myself shooting is a sport and we have as much right to travel with our sporting equipment as anybody else does with theirs, providing that we store and transport them in a manner which falls in line with the respective laws. There is no reason to be arrested if you are not committing a crime.

 

 

 

But anyway, this is not a conversation about travelling with firearms. If you are in any further doubt there is plenty of information on that freely available using google.

 

On a theatre front, and with a theatre looking to hold firearms on the premises, the point I will ultimately make is that, as items which could cause unnecessary distress or bother if handled by the wrong person, they do need to be stored and handled in a controlled manner. They do not, however, require a gun cabinet. Because ultimately, they can't, unlike actual firearms, be stolen and used for deadly purposes. They could be stolen and used as imitation firearms, but this could be done with any such RIF bought in a shop. Gun cabinets are for 'live' weapons which are not available off the shelf and require a license to buy and possess.

 

My suggestion to the OP would be that you have a cupboard in the SMs office where either the cupboard of part of it is lockable with it's own key, and that you keep a signing in / out sheet in that place so that it's location and who has it can always be traced easily. It should be common sense but on productions where an RIF is used it may also be worth your while giving the cast and crew a verbal reminder of the restriction of RIFs in the UK and why they are not 'toys', and remind them what responsible behaviour entails. These are common sense steps to reduce the chances of anybody being wrongly hassled for their use of RIFs in theatre. If you held a number of them on the premises, you might also wish to advise the local police station of this so that they can make record of it.

 

You should approach your RIFs like a risk assessment. "What is the risk?" "How do we control this risk" "Is that control enough?" "What more could we do?". If you can answer these questions you should easily be able to develop a safe system to store and use RIFs in your theatre.

[Jivemaster]

WHile the various firearms acts may not apply to an inert dummy, the VCRA certainly does and it catches anything that could be used for Violent Crime, so if it looks like a .... then it is considered to be a .... and needs keeping appropriately. Walking the street with a Lee Enfield gets a different response to being on a film or stage set with one -even if it's a rubber one.

[paulears]

I asked my policeman friend, and he confirmed TCs view, however, he said that finding an apparent weapon in a vehicle would not automatically mean a visit to the police station, but a call out of the firearm trained crew, and the visit to the station would only be required if the paperwork could not be verified by nature of time of day. You would however become 'known' as a person of interest. Nothing official, just local info to be remembered. Your vehicle would also most likely have a tag put on it, stating it may contain items that may require investigation.

 

Man arrested for having imitation firearm

 

If you google this, plenty of people get arrested, I'm not convinced a policeman would accept a piece of paper as proof. Remove risk, investigate and then release if appropriate is the sensible thing.

[bruce]

Years ago - we're talking mid-80s - a friend of mine went to a fancy dress party dressed as an american gangster. Black shirt, white tie, suit, trilby hat with band, painted-on moustache - basically a character from Bugsy Malone...

 

His "weapon" was a super-soaker water pistol. It wasn't exactly a realistic imitation, bearing in mind that it was fluorescent pink and made of plastic.

 

Walking home around midnight, after a few beers, he sprayed some water on his mate further up the street.

 

Ten minutes later he heard some footsteps close behind him. Thinking he was being mugged, he started to run. The next thing he remembers was he was on the ground, with 2 burly guys bouncing on top of him. He was shouting "take my wallet and leave me, it's in my pocket".

 

He then realised that there were 2 armed police pointing guns at him.

 

He got a night in the cells, and a charge of "breach of the peace".

 

Apparently a passing taxi driver had radiod in that "there was a guy with a machine gun on XXX road", and that he could see the bullets bouncing off the cars...

[top-cat]

Walking the street with a Lee Enfield

 

 

Man arrested for having imitation firearm

 

"A man was arrested after brandishing a fake gun in a city street"

 

 

Sorry but you both seem to be referring to actually having a weapon in your hands in a public place. Which is a very different scenario to having it in a box in your car boot. The 2 circumstances are really rather different, I do think you're being overly cautious with your attitude and the actual chances of you being stopped and searched whilst moving an RIF is very low. But this is not to say I think you can just walk down the street with one in your hand waving it around and not worry, and say "I'm a technician" because clearly there is no substitute for common sense.

[themadhippy]

It's just not true. The police don't arrest anybody who has a firearm of any sort in their car

no they tend to shoot first then ask the questions later