Armouries cupboard

[philmonty]

Armouries cupboard. Is it a legal requirement a venue must have 1.

 

We don't have any stage weapons in stocks. We are a receiving venue only.

 

Do we need to provide one for touring productions

[ImagineerTom]

If it was then there's literally thousands of "theatres" (ie village halls, am-dram venues) breaking the law.

 

If you've got a show than includes weapons then your venue licensing authority / local police will have a view on the procedures and policies you must adhere to, likewise the touring show itself will have policies and procedures they follow both for safety and compliance with their own insurance or licenses. I wouldn't waste time trying to second guess/predict the future needs of unknown shows on the off-chance they might come to your venue - instead wait until a show with actual weapons in it considers coming to your venue and only then start to worry about it all.

[Jivemaster]

If you get a show that needs restricted items, then the show should tell you in advance, and from the style you should be able to second guess as well. A simple room with a door lock is a starter for most cases.

[philmonty]

Cheers man thanks for the heads up.

 

If it was then there's literally thousands of "theatres" (ie village halls, am-dram venues) breaking the law.

 

If you've got a show than includes weapons then your venue licensing authority / local police will have a view on the procedures and policies you must adhere to, likewise the touring show itself will have policies and procedures they follow both for safety and compliance with their own insurance or licenses. I wouldn't waste time trying to second guess/predict the future needs of unknown shows on the off-chance they might come to your venue - instead wait until a show with actual weapons in it considers coming to your venue and only then start to worry about it all.

[andy_s]

I think I'm with Tom on this - when I toured a show featuring a replica colt 45 auto to small scale venues recently I included a request for secure storage in my technical rider, but I expected this would be tricky for many small scale venues, and I was clear the responsibility for the security of the (non-functioning) weapon rested very firmly on my shoulders, so I devised a suitable fall-back option which didn't assume I would be able to keep it in the box office safe everywhere I went. I think the onus is on the touring company to ensure they can keep their weapons secure anywhere. If you have space in a safe or other lockable cupboard in the production / technical office to offer them I'm sure it would be appreciated, but personally, if you don't, I don't think you need to lose sleep or spend money on providing for the possibility that someone may at some time in the future need a gun cupboard. In fact, I think it's more the other way - you need to be happy that the method statements / risk assessments provided by the visiting company are adequate, but it is the owner / user of the replica or deactivated weapon that has to prove that they have a defence against the VCR act 2006 and that they have taken all precautions to prevent the misuse or theft of these items.

[top-cat]

Is it actually a requirement at all to keep de-acts in a safe place in theatres? I couldn't find any evidence. My AK47 lives on the wall at home and all the advice I got from local plod was that there is nothing wrong with keeping an ak47 on your wall because you can just as easily buy one in a shop.

 

I can't see why it would be any different in a theatre. Weapon storage regulations in the UK are actually reasonably chilled out. You can keep a fairly capable target rifle at home in a not particularly high spec gun cabinet.

[Ynot]

Weapon storage regulations in the UK are actually reasonably chilled out. You can keep a fairly capable target rifle at home in a not particularly high spec gun cabinet.

Hmmm...

 

Just because you 'can' doesn't necessarily mean you 'should'.....

 

http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif

 

 

 

 

[top-cat]

Weapon storage regulations in the UK are actually reasonably chilled out. You can keep a fairly capable target rifle at home in a not particularly high spec gun cabinet.

Hmmm...

 

Just because you 'can' doesn't necessarily mean you 'should'.....

 

 

I still don't see much point in getting to up tight about storage of replica firearms. They're not dangerous, and anybody who wants one can just as easily buy one in a militaria shop.

 

Frankly the sort of people who are going to break into a theatre in order to steal a replica gun to commit crime, could probably without much more hassle obtain the real thing.

[the kid]

I would suggest that perhaps it is not dangerous to the person at the open end of the barrel but more for the person holding it. How many "death by cop"/"almost death by cop" have happened in recent years ?

I am fairly sure the police would not be impressed at the prospect of turning up full force to some idiot with a rubber gun. I am sure there could/would even be action either civil or crown depending how much pain you caused.

All you would need is some wondering person to pick it up and someone else to no know it was a fake, it really is not that hard. If anything your/their risk assessment should have the prospect of that.

 

I had a small small tour come and they had a wide selection of arms they kept stored in a wooden crate screwed in to the van until they wanted them at the half.

I think there was one show where we locked them in the office but only because they asked.

 

I believe that SMA or even ABTT have some written words on storage, they might be able to help out.

 

You will also see in much of mythbusters and the newer episodes, " can you shoot a grenade" in particular, regardless of device they have little flags or sticks and I think trigger caps for when they are not loaded, regardless of bb/paintball/live ammo.

[paulears]

While the regulations may well allow you to legally have a deactivated weapon in your control, the issue is getting it there without traversing a public space. Having one on your person on the journey home is an arrest able offence, because a deactivated weapon is still considered an offensive weapon, and having one in your boot is going to get you pinned up against the wall, handcuffed and taken to the police station while it is tested, serial checked and your history gone through. Then, depending on your attitude when being arrested, they can prosecute you if they wish.

 

Many less dedicated members left a pistol shooting club near me because of the problems transporting them. Of course it can be done legally, as the shotgun brigade do, but the legislation and public opinion at the moment mean that a weapon that looks 'bad' is quite a problem.

[top-cat]

While the regulations may well allow you to legally have a deactivated weapon in your control, the issue is getting it there without traversing a public space. Having one on your person on the journey home is an arrest able offence, because a deactivated weapon is still considered an offensive weapon, and having one in your boot is going to get you pinned up against the wall, handcuffed and taken to the police station while it is tested, serial checked and your history gone through. Then, depending on your attitude when being arrested, they can prosecute you if they wish.

 

Many less dedicated members left a pistol shooting club near me because of the problems transporting them. Of course it can be done legally, as the shotgun brigade do, but the legislation and public opinion at the moment mean that a weapon that looks 'bad' is quite a problem.

 

Sorry Paul but that is a load of ill-informed tripe and not helpful at all.

 

For a start, you can carry a live, functional firearm in public. Providing it is in a locked case, that is fine. Having one on your journey home is NOT an arrestable offence, providing that the weapon is legal, and that you are transporting it responsibly. So your "pinned up against the wall" thing, and whatever your "they can prosecute you if they wish" thing is all about (popular to 70s cop drama folklore, you can't prosecute somebody just because you feel like it) is all guff I'm afraid. Section 8 of the 1988 Act provides that, unless it can be shown otherwise, a firearm which has been de-activated to a standard approved by the Secretary of State, so that it is incapable of discharging any shot, bullet or other missile, is presumed not to be a firearm within the meaning of the 1968 Act and therefore is not subject to control if it bears a mark approved by the Secretary of State for denoting that fact. And generally the police don't go searching random cars anyway. But point being, if you are on your way home from a production and you're pulled over for your brake light being out, and they then search your boot:

a) Saying "just so you are aware, I have a realistic imitation firearm in the boot, I am a technician on a theatre tour and we use one in the show" is generally advised. You've nothing to hide and you'll be treated like an adult, rather than a drug dealer.

b) If it is a de-act, as opposed to be a purpose-made imitation firearm, it should be complete with markings to denote that fact, and you should also be in possession of a certificate proving it's de-activation which you can show them to prove your case. You may also be able to show proof of it's de-activation - IE by working parts being welded up, or holes drilled in the barrel (which itself, I think, is a legal requirement for all de-act weapons).

 

if it is stored in a box, in the boot of your car, out the way and doing nothing, and you have sufficient paperwork to prove that it is not a functioning weapon, they will not bother you. If you are lacking in paperwork and have it stuffed into the door pocket of your car wrapped in a rag then that might arouse a few more suspicions. It is fairly common sensical. Contrary to your belief, a de-activated weapon is NOT classified as an offensive weapon, it is classified as an imitation firearm (or a realistic imitation firearm, depending on it's end appearance) and does not come under the Firearms Act 1968, and instead comes under the Violent Crime Reductions Act 2006. (The same act which covers BB guns...). Section 37 of the VCR2006 states

 

 

 

 

37Specific defences applying to the offence under s. 36

 

(1)It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under section 36 in respect of any conduct to show that the conduct was for the purpose only of making the imitation firearm in question available for one or more of the purposes specified in subsection (2).

(2)Those purposes are—

 

(b)the purposes of theatrical performances and of rehearsals for such performances;

 

So as I said above, if you were for some reason to be stopped by the old bill on your way to or from the theatre, explaining that you were working on a theatrical production at the XYZ Theatre and were heading directly to the theatre, or to your home / hotel (or place of storage for the weapon) should be sufficient to keep everything sane. However if you decided after work to go out for a beer with the crew, and were stopped by the door staff heading into a bar - you could then expect hassle from the local constabulary.

 

I should imagine your pistol club members were affected because magazine fed handguns are completely illegal in the UK without exception. (Well - obvious exception to the police and armed forces). Muzzle loaded hand guns are tolerated for pistol clubs / sport shooting. But again I suspect you are exaggerating somewhat. To transport a muzzle loading pistol, in a proper case, in the boot of your car in a manner where it is out of view and not left unattended for any length of time (and, if possible, preferably bolted to the chassis. You have to do a sort of risk assessment basically), with you carrying ID and a copy of your firearms license, should not get you into any bother at all. FYI - sporting pistols for use in target shooting clubs have a drastically different appearance to the kind of thing your local hoodie might tuck down his trackies. Ammunition where possible should be transported separately or stored at the club. Many clubs sell ammunition anyway, it's a good form of fundraising for the club and saves you having to transport it. But if you do have to transport it alone, providing it is in a secure container, separate from that of the weapon - and again, preferably bolted into the chassis, it is within the law. Rifle ownership follows much the same regulation.

 

There is no need to scare people over RIFs. The law is tight, to reduce crime, but not so tight so as not to recognise the excellent reputation the UK has for theatre, film and TV and the prominence of firearms in modern society which necessitates their use in such drama. If you are over 18, and are simply responsible with the way that you store, transport, and use RIFs, there is absolutely no reason for you to be pinned up to a wall and cuffed. I don't know why you chose to say that but there is no need for it at all.

[Brian]

37 Specific defences applying to the offence under s. 36

 

(1)It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under section 36 in respect of any conduct to show that the conduct was for the purpose only of making the imitation firearm in question available for one or more of the purposes specified in subsection (2).

(2)Those purposes are—

 

(b)the purposes of theatrical performances and of rehearsals for such performances;

 

So as I said above, if you were for some reason to be stopped by the old bill on your way to or from the theatre, explaining that you were working on a theatrical production at the XYZ Theatre and were heading directly to the theatre, or to your home / hotel (or place of storage for the weapon) should be sufficient to keep everything sane.

 

Not quite.

 

That section of the Act is a Defence not an Exemption. In other words, you can only claim it, in court, after you have been arrested, charged and summonsed to appear in court.

[themadhippy]

If they'll taser you for having a white cane these days I dont fancy the risk.

[ImagineerTom]

The issue you seem to be missing here is not how it will play out in court months or years later, but rather (as madhippy so eloquently put it) making sure you don't get shot in the first place.

 

There's rules and regulations about how imitation/fake firearms should be handled, more importantly there's a long legal precedent that anything that a policeman might /think/ is a lethal weapon (on a dark night, in a split second, whilst he's undercover on what he thinks is a terrorist plot) is considered to be a lethal weapon and if you get shot/injured/cause an incident because of this it's your problem, not his. No-one wants to be the venue/producer who brought an entirely authentic looking but completely fake gun then had one of their stage crew shot because they were carrying it home sticking out of a rucksack and happened to walk past an undercover police operation who were looking for an assassin...

 

If you have real weapons (guns, swords, guns that could be converted to shoot things) then there's a very strict set of LAWS about how they are handled, stored and transported.

 

If you have faux guns/weapons there's a less strict set of rules but actually most of the laws involve doing things to guns that make them useless for theatre - no-one is going to believe a play about soldiers if they're all carrying machine guns painted fluorescent orange! This has lead to problems with highly authentic looking "theatre grade" guns being stolen or used precisely because no-one other than the person holding them can tell if they're real or not so generally they involve just as much paperwork and process's to ensure they are never in a situation where they could be confused.

 

If you're using entirely fake weapons there's some guidance laws, minor safety regs but also a shedload of moral responsibilities involved to ensure they're handled in such a way as they won't be confused for real weapons outside of performance.

 

So to answer the OP's question in more detail - you don't need to take any action until you actually have a show that uses weapons, at that point what actions you have to take are dependent entirely on what the weapons are, which of the 3 categories above they fall in to and what YOUR specific licensing authorities / police want you to do to minimise confusion and risk.

[top-cat]

 

 

There's rules and regulations about how imitation/fake firearms should be handled, more importantly there's a long legal precedent that anything that a policeman might /think/ is a lethal weapon (on a dark night, in a split second, whilst he's undercover on what he thinks is a terrorist plot) is considered to be a lethal weapon and if you get shot/injured/cause an incident because of this it's your problem, not his. No-one wants to be the venue/producer who brought an entirely authentic looking but completely fake gun then had one of their stage crew shot because they were carrying it home sticking out of a rucksack and happened to walk past an undercover police operation who were looking for an assassin...

 

 

 

 

And what you seem to be missing here is that if a member of stage crew takes it upon themselves to take a replica hand gun home sticking out of their rucksack then they are an idiot and no amount of gun cabinets you buy for your stage can protect against idiots.

 

Like I said it is a common sense situation. If you handle them responsibly, you are unlikely to be stopped in the first place. And if for any reason you are stopped anyway, explaining that you are a theatre practitioner carrying a replica firearm for use in your production and have the necessary paperwork to prove the weapon is a replica, the police will see it for what it is and put you on your way. The UK has no shortage of drug dealers and kids with knives and the police don't need to spend their time arresting theatre techs with dysfunctional weapons.

 

If you decide to wave it around in public or prat about with it then you deserve everything you get. But seriously. We all take leathermans into work and since they have locking blades you don't find every tech on here bricking it about being stopped by the police and shot 17 times with a sub machine gun in a tube station.