Cable ties for “rigging”

[jackbsound]

Hi All,

Can anyone point me in the direction of specific legislation or regulations covering temporary install of fixed equipment at events (not necessarily on stage). 

I’m concerned about some equipment being installed with cable ties on various events, but I’m struggling to find anything concrete to support my concerns. The equipment doesn’t move once installed so I don’t think it falls under LOLER, but it can be upto 3 KG (for example PTZ CCTV cameras) and usually at between 2-5m high.

 

Thanks,

Jack

[Ynot]

Can't give you a chapter and verse answer, but in my opinion cable ties are basically useful for what they say on the pack... Tying CABLES together or in place.

Anything of any serious weight (eg anything that might cause a nasty incident if it fell) should NOT be mounted using them for the simple reason that in the case of a fire (or even the ambient temp getting hot enough to make them become pliable... **) then anything that's held up that way could fall and add additional injury to the public or even emergency services tackling the blaze.

** Even in the UK, an item in direct sunlight, for example, or close to a lantern that's getting hot can result in cable ties warming up and going soft, rendering the zip-catch ineffective.

[kerry davies]

Quote

The LOLER definition of Lifting equipment includes any equipment used at work for lifting or lowering loads, Including attachments used for anchoring, fixing or supporting it. 

In the case you mention that camera is a load so anything supporting it is an attachment used to support it. 

Nothing to do with your original question but using one inch insulating tape really carefully applied can lift a one tonne load with as little as three full turns. So 3 kg is not a big load and with appropriate safety chains and suitably large cable ties ties they might be judged adequate in some circumstances. I wouldn't ever recommend their use but neither would I condemn them outright in every circumstance.

[Brian]

BS7671 for fixed installations, and by extension BS7909 for temporary installations, contains various requirements that in the event of a fire all cabling and equipment is to stay where it was so as to not introduce additional hazards for the fire service.

 

[E2A]

So you'll also be in breach of your premises licence.

[dje]

On 2/26/2023 at 5:34 AM, kerry davies said:

In the case you mention that camera is a load so anything supporting it is an attachment used to support it. 

That doesn't make it fall under LOLER. The line you have quoted refers to attachments used for anchoring, fixing or supporting the lifting equipment.

If there is no lift involved then it is not covered by LOLER

[dje]

You are correct that this doesn't fall under LOLER, I would say the cable ties fall under PUWER. As far as the PUWER thing goes, the designer is responsible for ensuring that all equipment used in supporting this installation is sufficiently strong enough to support the loads imposed by the equipment and any additional loads imposed by its intended use. 

Whilst you may not believe that the zip ties are acceptable, they may have been chosen at the conclusion of a thorough design process which ultimately specified them as the most suitable attachment means. Realistically that is of course probably not the case and they've probably been chosen because they're cheap. But to a point you have to respect the decision of the designer here. They may be able to prove that the cable ties are of suitable specification and they may be able to show that the cable ties are the most effective method. Sadly, you don't know. 

If you believe that there is an imminent risk to safety then you can report it but ultimately if the designer has done their job properly and concluded that cable ties are the most suitable attachment method then you may have to accept that.

[jackbsound]

Thanks all for the replies, I had a feeling it wouldn’t be quite as black and white as I thought! 
 

 

[Brian]

1 hour ago, jackbsound said:

Thanks all for the replies, I had a feeling it wouldn’t be quite as black and white as I thought! 
 

Really? There's doubt? It's very clear.

BS7671 states, in 521.11.201...

Quote

Wiring systems in escape routes  shall be supported such that they will not be liable to premature collapse in the event of fire.

...and in Note 2 to the above...

Quote

this precludes the use of non-metallic cable clips, cable ties or cable trunking as the sole means of support. 

 

[jackbsound]

Hi Brian,

Thanks for your reply, I did note the above but as my question wasn’t regarding cabling systems or indeed anything in a fire escape route, it seems that cable ties may be appropriate if they can be shown to be strong enough. 
 

It is an interesting point though regarding cabling systems. In my previous life many of the UK theatres I visited had cables either PVC taped or cable tied to scaff bars fitted above the stage entrance doors, which are almost always fire exits, I guess metal hooks is the obvious choice to make things compliant but also quick to rig/derig.

[Brian]

Doesn't the equipment which is being cable tied in place have cable running to it?

[jackbsound]

Well it might do, but equally it might not.  Either way the fixture itself wouldn’t be part of the “wiring system” specified in that regulation, would it? Especially considering the fact, as I mentioned previously, that it isn’t in an escape route.

[Ynot]

12 hours ago, jackbsound said:

..... that it isn’t in an escape route.

ANY area is in an escape route if someone happens to be the other side of the potential hazard from the normal exit.....

[timsabre]

1 hour ago, Ynot said:

ANY area is in an escape route if someone happens to be the other side of the potential hazard from the normal exit.....

Not really. I get involved in a lot of church AV installs where the standard advice has previously been to hot glue cabling to the wall to avoid damaging the ancient stonework by hammering in cable clips. Mostly this runs down the side wall of the building where it would not be a hazard to anyone if it fell to the floor. But where it crosses a doorway or walkway or corridor, they have changed the advice to use metal fire clips or metal trunking.

It's just going back to the old chestnut of assessing the risk in each situation - the intention of that regulation is to avoid firefighters becoming entangled in fallen cabling during rescues (as happened a few times). I think the OP was really thinking about falling equipment. I have seen plenty of stuff ratchet-strapped to trees and things, which has the same problem with fire resistance, also cable ties are widely used in temporary staging for securing tarps and small bits of structure etc. If the cable ties are appropriately sized and it isn't going to fall on someone in a fire then I would think it's OK.

[sunray]

13 minutes ago, timsabre said:

Not really. I get involved in a lot of church AV installs where the standard advice has previously been to hot glue cabling to the wall to avoid damaging the ancient stonework by hammering in cable clips. Mostly this runs down the side wall of the building where it would not be a hazard to anyone if it fell to the floor. But where it crosses a doorway or walkway or corridor, they have changed the advice to use metal fire clips or metal trunking.

It's just going back to the old chestnut of assessing the risk in each situation - the intention of that regulation is to avoid firefighters becoming entangled in fallen cabling during rescues (as happened a few times). I think the OP was really thinking about falling equipment. I have seen plenty of stuff ratchet-strapped to trees and things, which has the same problem with fire resistance, also cable ties are widely used in temporary staging for securing tarps and small bits of structure etc. If the cable ties are appropriately sized and it isn't going to fall on someone in a fire then I would think it's OK.

Fire isn't the only hazard. I've known of a stage tarp secured with cable ties be caught by the wind and escape, first it collected a man and deposited him in the river then wrapped itself around the wheels of a lorry.

No actual damage caused but by the grace of God both could have been a lot worse.

[DrV]

2 hours ago, sunray said:

Fire isn't the only hazard. I've known of a stage tarp secured with cable ties be caught by the wind and escape, first it collected a man and deposited him in the river then wrapped itself around the wheels of a lorry.

No actual damage caused but by the grace of God both could have been a lot worse.

That's just inadequate strength of fixing. Nothing to do with the fact that they were cable ties. Same would have happened with steel wire if it was thin enough.

Edited March 15, 2023 by DrV