Chinese LED lighting - pros and cons

[paulears]

I thought I'd pop this video up as some people might find it interesting - should you buy Chinese lights, and how exactly do they produce them. Maybe something in it will be useful?https://youtu.be/Or_DiI45Mss

[Don Allen]

Thanks Paul, very useful video, he is correct about getting different models, even after a few weeks ! Hope anyone considering buying Chinese lights watches it before buying.

I purchased a Hosen BeeEye clone from Hosen Lighting , a company that I had bought from before, that I saw on the Alibaba web site, so when they sent me  PI for USD$790 I did a bank transfer, but they sent me their old bank account number, so I lost my money, my bank was not able to recover it as someone in China has claimed it. Lesson learnt is always use their Trade Assurance payment service for buyer protection.

[paulears]

On the whole, my Chinese experience is now long, and very much positive. I do have a few Alibaba contacts where I don't use their system as my initial trust was fine and there are cost benefits. The only downside of doing direct payments outside the Alibaba system, apart from the money security is that their rules mean they WILL declare the costs accurately and of course VAT will be charged UK end. This is a minor inconvenience as I'm registered so the input tax cancels out, but the people who deliver it all charge for paying the VAT on my behalf - on a grand or two, £15 charges is OK - but not on daft things like parts or batteries. Aliexpress, that anyone can use is quite trouble free, and the only disputes have been the 'absolute bargains'. Since covid - I've moved into marine band radios, and quite often I get offered models I keep in stock at silly prices from 'companies' with no previous sales. They are such bargains, I buy them! Occasionally I get the goods and they're just a few extra at increased margin, but usually they don't turn up. The trick is they post something and the tracking shows it delivered, back to their Chinese address. I think they bank on people not noticing the delivery shown as next day, expecting the typical 2-4wk wait, so by the time you complain, they're gone! Aliexpress have refunded me on every one of these fake purchases, so it's just annoying, but there is the chance of a bargain - it does happen.

Some of the lights have been really good - the beam style bee-eye designs can do an awful lot - washes beams effects and the 90W things with a couple of gobo wheels have been pretty solid. The cost now of proper European brands is out of my reach because I need maybe 6-12 as an order. For fifteen hundred pounds you can produce some really nice stuff, and if you use them yourself, you tend to take more care of them.

I've just been ordering replacement lamps for some Vipers. I know a cheap Chinese LED fixture is NOT a viper, but for the price of a lamp, I can buy a fixture that will last longer than that lamp!

Lots of people are scared or just reluctant to buy direct from China, but if you do your homework you can get some really nice stuff nowadays. Reliability seems pretty good. 

I also keep an eye out for counterfeit items. If they're modestly priced, I buy them and compare them with genuine products I have. A few are truly dire, but lots I need to take home from the office because they're so good, if I got them mixed up, I would not be able to tell.

I know the view of BR members on counterfeits, so I will not make the mistake of promoting any of these, but one thing has emerged from my radio sales experience.  Clearly many products sold at premium prices here are indeed made in China, yet carry Made in Japan (or other territory) labels. One brand I cannot get a dealership for, but can buy from them as an agent, is fiercely protective. The ones I bring in from Germany are here, grey imports, and customers warned about the dangers by the UK franchisee. However, they are actually made by a brand I buy large amounts from. I got one in from a customer and was amazed that I had this product sitting on the shelf. Same unusual programming port, same charger, identical software, bar the branding. The UK product had a new splash screen with their brand name, but with this unticked in the software, MY brand re-appeared. The colour was black, not dark grey. I'm left with the firm opinion that they are made in China, and simply programmed in Japan. That sucks. I've discovered the same thing with another big American radio brand, and two other 'Japanese' brands. The common theme seems to be five years from discontinuation of a model. At that point, I get offered stock. Happened numerous times now. I have discovered that Sony and Panasonic have a common microphone used on their broadcast cameras. An OEM product made of course in China. From time to time the counterfeits are clearly simply pretending to be something they are not. 

In the video I mentioned about the language barrier. I got offered some microphones for Icom radios. I needed some mics for my Kenwood hire stock, so I asked a question.

Me-Can you supply these for Kenwood?

Them-You want for Kenwood?

Me-Yes - must be for Kenwood?

Them-OK we can do

 

I ordered ten. This is what arrived.

 

 

[sunray]

I was sourcing some DMR radios and speaking with a 'UK importer' about the difference between different brands whereapon he claimed his stock of TYT, Tytera & Hytera were identical until he inputted the firmware and stuck on the labels.

So when he asked which brand I required I answered "Doesn't matter" and 3 weeks later 24 radios arrived all beautifully programmed FOC directly to my customer. Fortunately they saw the funny side of it and so did the importer who promptly arranged for replacement lables with the customers name and coloured logo and numbered 1 to 24. They were happy to peel off the old and replace them but the last time I was there I noticed one sitting there in the charger still didn't matter.

[KevinE]

A very earnest video but I'd be worried as the importer about liability, particularly with regard to the electrical safety of the design (let alone the quality control) , which may not necessarily be apparent until something major has already happened. Western branded chinese lights will have spent considerable time at testing labs in the UK or Europe before being put onto the market. Things like creepage & clearance, high-pot testing of the SMPSU transformers, flammability of the plastics used - you're only going to discover these little gotchas when the thing catches fire or shoves 230V up your DMX chain. 

I know a batch of chinese lights (I dont know the supplier) where they were all sent out with the earth wire not connected at the fixture end. I've personally seen all-steel enclosures with an IEC inlet with only 2 wires coming out of the back, that sort of thing. 

I haven't heard of anything recently but if a brand owner decides your lights could accidentally be mistaken for some of theirs, you're going to get a letter from their solicitor. 

[pmiller056]

Like @KevinE, I'm very uncomfortable buying electrical/electronic equipment directly from Asia. What puts me off is that there is never any 'Declaration of Comformity' which is a legally required document that goes with a 'CE' mark on any product. The consequence of no DoC is that all product liabilities rest directly with the importer into UK/EU territory. Buying through a 3rd party marketplace does not change this.

I may be more interested in buying directly if I could buy (say) 2 sample products to be thoroghly examined and tested. Once satisfied I would then buy more, provided I knew I would get exactly the same as the previously examined samples. As Paul says, this doesn't happen. I accept that products do exolve during the production lifetime, but if I can be assured that safety critical parts such as case materials, overheat protection, power supplies and power carrying/controlling components were exactly the same as the sample products, then I'd be more inclined to directly buy more equipment.

I have bought small quanties of Asian electrical/electronic equipment for my own personal use, but I will not buy for transfer or resale to another party where there is any potential public performance or public liability risk - for me, it's not worth it. I do have the skills, knowledge and access to tools and equipment to make my own judgement about directly imported equipment for my own personal use - but that's as far as I'm prepared to go.

[sunray]

On the subject of AliExpress, having read recent comments I feel more comfortable with the process and have placed my first order on 24th Dec.

3 items from different suppliers total value a measely £8.96 paypal seemed to be the preferred payment method and amount taken is £10.67which appears to be VAT at 19% however looking at the individual suppliers the 'Tax' figure appears to be more like 25%, 21% & 15% and I now have a message showing a predicted £2.79 to pay for VAT and import duty.

Is this typical and how do I pay the additional fee?

[sunray]

On 12/19/2022 at 5:20 PM, KevinE said:

I haven't heard of anything recently but if a brand owner decides your lights could accidentally be mistaken for some of theirs, you're going to get a letter from their solicitor. 

I have had this in the past with a Bstock minidisk recorder from one of the regular UK high street suppliers whos name implies quite expensive, it came with full warranty and I even took out their 3 year insurance. The reason for being Bstock was a big stratch which ran across the display and broke one button, both were clearly documented as excluded from further claim.

Quite quickly the machine froze with a fault code which did not appear in the book. Taking it back they plugged it in and the machine jumped into life, ejected the disc and functioned correctly. This happened 3 times,

4th time the fault was still there and they sent it for repair, message came back it was a fake  and not the item I'd purchased from them. To add insult to injury it was destroyed and not returned. For an £80 machine it wasn't worth the hassle of fighting a big company, my only consolation was reclaiming my extended warranty at 3 years which they never bother to check if a claim has been made.

[indyld]

Costs on Ali are best calculated at the very end of the basket process, but can be sure it'll go up from the early total. Just factor it in. I just pay by card tbh. 

I've used Ali lots and for the first time am currently having issues with a seller who, after a 3 month no show of the goods, is refusing to take responsibility for the obvious fact that Evri has lost the package. Only they can resolve this, but they don't or won't understand this. 

Hey ho, won't be much lost if end up having to write off and won't use that seller again. 

Edited December 27, 2022 by indyld

[Brian]

2 hours ago, sunray said:

Is this typical and how do I pay the additional fee?

If you are lucky the packages will just appear on your door mat. If you are unlucky then you will get a card from Royal Mail, one for every package, which requires you to pay the fee at the local sorting office, plus,  IIRC, a £19 processing charge per package. Although there is a lower limit below which they don't bother collecting.

[Brian]

18 hours ago, pmiller056 said:

The consequence of no DoC is that all product liabilities rest directly with the importer into UK/EU territory.

Let me correct that for you...

18 hours ago, pmiller056 said:

All product liabilities rest directly with the importer into UK/EU territory. 

The presence of, or lack of, a DoC does not affect any liabilities. They rest totally with the person in the territory concerned who 'places the product on the market'. And that does not necessarily mean that the product is offered for sale, making it available for 'first use' is considered placing it on the market.

[partyanimallighting]

I myself have purchased horrible products from some Chinese companies (let's just say the temptation was price) and I've bought products from OEM companies that have been bulletproof over many years. Case in point, I bought some outdoor rated LED PAR's from an OEM company back in 2012 I believe. To date, after 10 years, I have changed 1 or 2 power supplies and maybe 2 or 3 current amperage PCB's over the course of time. And, being one of the larger OEM companies, even after a few years, parts are still readily available. Then.......I've bought PAR's from another company and these units failed after only a couple of jobs, blown diodes, overheating issues etc and I got absolutely no recourse from that company. Once you find a good product from a reliable company, stick with them, strengthen the business relationship and don't stray away because of better pricing for a similar product from another company. If you do stray, don't make a big investment at one shot. Buy a couple samples and test them rigorously. There will probably be issues because, if the pricing is cheaper, that company is cutting costs somewhere.

 

 

[Stuart91]

On 12/27/2022 at 2:34 PM, sunray said:

On the subject of AliExpress, having read recent comments I feel more comfortable with the process and have placed my first order on 24th Dec.

Is this typical and how do I pay the additional fee?

Most of my orders are similar size to yours, things like heat shrink, small tools, connectors, etc. 

For a good while now UK VAT has been added at the checkout so there hasn't been anything else to pay on my orders. If you have somehow managed to incur a fee it'll probably be the Post Office that try to recoup it before delivering. 

[paulears]

The VAT thing does cause some confusion, but in practice the things that happen are fairly consitent. If the value of the goods is under £135 then VAT at 20% should be added via the supplier, and is pretty standard on aliexpress. Aliexpress will add the 20% UK VAT to the checkout. The supplier cannot provide you with paperwork, but you can get an Aliexpress invoice from them that will show a UK VAT number. HMRC instructed them to do this, folloing brexit. If you have an old account with Alibaba, the more business oriented side of the company, and have lodged your VAT number with them, then usually goods are invoiced net of VAT. If the goods are sent via air freight, then my experience is that 25% will have incomplete paperwork and UPS/Fedex or whoever deliver the package here - including Parcelforce, will add the VAT at 20% they paid on your behalf, plus a handling fee of between 12 and 15 pounds. On payment of this,they deliver = although Parcelforce often forget and deliver the item, only to ask a few weeks later for the payment. If the goods are delivered with no VAT, if you are VAT registered, then the correct system for you to use is where you aacount for the VAT unpaid immediately in your accounts and then of course, they cancel out - leaving a net £0 balance. However, depending on dates, you could end up paying it and having to wait for the next quarter for the effective refund. Other Chinese suppliers may invoice directly, rather than through Aliexpress or Alibaba, and it's 50/50 on VAT not being charged. It's common to have to pay the freight and handling, then of course you recover the VAT, but lose the handling.

On the subject of approvals for lighting - forget it. even where it seems there is a valid EU/UK approval, it's invalidated by the construction method. The power supply, for example. It may well have a real and verifiable approval, but it will be inside a casing with different optics, electrical componentsand mechanical components. The approved power supply not be an approval for the whole thing. As the actual light you buy is effectievly a customised item, there cannot be an approval that is of any use. Therefore you have a problem, or number of problems. If you buy them for your own use, or for your small hire business, then public and product liability insurance would be the way to go forward. They usually have a requirement that the equipment was safe - so the idea for your own electrical safety test is a sensible step. Accepting any approval paperwork is utterly pointless. You need to determine if you can use the equipment safely. Then you take the responsibility. If you are self-employed, then as a sole trader, it really is on your head.

The subject of copyright doesn't really impact with most chinese lighting equipment because as far as I am aware, they are not counterfeiting specific systems or even copying things like attribute distribution. Consider the original bee-eye designs that are rights protected. The clever optics, the colimation tubes, all that stuff - the Chinese bee-eyes simply have a non-circular lense that rotates and passes in front of a multicolour LED. There is no attempt to sharpen the beam or even control it, and the effects these produce are very different. One fixture might them add the front rotating unit to a zoom servo mount. As far as I can tell, just pretty stock, bolt together modules.

Brands of course are simply made up, as are model numbers. If you buy rom china, then I would never dream of returning any product that cost me less than £100 - it's just not economic. You factor this in.

The upshot is that it is ALWAYS a gamble, even with my established supplier. I have £500 of radios I cannot sell, because they never produced the software I need to program them. 

One copyright feature that does happen is when a Chinese company have an OEM contract with a UK brand, and they make them sometimes publicaly, sometimes in secret. Around 5 years later, the contract expires and they will sell whatever complete units they have assembled from the bits they have. The may well carry a real brand. this is tricky. Technically, it's not a counterfeit, it's a grey import. unapproved, and unsupported by the UK brand. This is a very strange area. Serial number checks will show it is not 'genuine', as on the UK importers serial list. One firm in the UK tell some of my customers their product is not real, or is a counterfeit, but they're not. Selling these I find very difficult - people could get a great price, but it always comes and bites back. I rarely do it apart from a few customers who know the system.

 

So - will your chinese purchase cost more by the time it gets to you? Yes, probably it will. 20% plus fifteen quid is a good guide. If you don't get this charged, it's a bonus.

[sunray]

Well it's all very interesting and I might add more than a little confusing.

So far I've seen the advertised prices and at checkout they are a few coppers different and had 3 different % of TAX added resulting in a total of 19% but none are 20%

Confirmation again shows another 3 different prices.

3 dispatch notices quoting 3 more prices

1 confirmation of the 3 items deing dispatched and yet 3 more prices. Each of the prices shown are within a 12p range or better of

Notification VAT and import duty will be added.

 

I'mm assuming that the exchange rate kicks in somewhere along the line