Chinese lighting controls

[paulears]

Since Covid - I've had a video studio up and running in a property I took over, and I put in a scaff grid for lighting - Initially TV style kit - LED flat panels that kind of thing but my theatre stuff crept in for a few jobs (music videos) and seem to live happily there now. Control wise, I'm using my magicQ - but this will hopefully be going back to it's proper home for the summer leaving mje without a DMX control - and while I could use a dongle and stick Magicq on a computer, I'd rather have real faders. I've spotted a couple that would work for me - and they're clearly pointed at the AVOs. R20 library.

 

I'm not worried about reliability - and while clearly looking like AVOs, there are differences and no branding. A bit of research suggests they're really popular in India and China - but the non-roller version is really quite cheap. Loads of people understandably will hate them and the concept behind them - as in blank copying, but for the price - I'd get a very, very basic DMX control. Plenty of faders enough for the video stufff, and a few colours from the spare movers I have hanging there. I'm quite tempted because it's a power up, shove faders and away you go solution. Has anyone tried these things? Youtube brings up plenty of videos in Hindi!

 

[timsabre]

As these desks use a modified ripoff of Avo's Pearl Classic software and leech on their personality library, which is created by our very own Niclights here on Blueroom, I would avoid them on principle and help Avo in their fight against the clones.

[dje]

What Tim said.

 

These Chinese ripoffs are, like it or not, a real problem to the industry. If you want to know more, call Avolites or MA Lighting (probably the two most affected brands) and have a chat with them about it - I'm sure they'll be happy to give you an idea of what the piracy costs them.

 

I appreciate that if you're not going to spend 'Avo money' then like, they're not losing a sale. Valid. But the pirates are still gaining a sale, which helps them continue to exist.

 

Also bear in mind that, where those consoles are using some 'hacked' adaptation of the Avolites software; you would be using unlicensed software which is illegal and if reported could leave you open to prosecution.

 

There's not much we can do to stop those things appearing in India and China but I think we should at least try not to see them on British shows. In a post-Brexit Britain, we need more than ever to ensure we're supporting our own manufacturers as best we can.

[Junior8]

Before I retired from covering the retail trade every sector I was interested in was having some kind of growing problem with China of which the major was piracy and fakes followed closely by really worrying quality issues. Admittedly most of this was self-inflicted by outsourcing to places they simply couldn't supervise but it was getting worse all the time and at least they had some legal responsibilities over what they bought to market. (To give an example of what is happening I will simply say that anyone who buys a Stihl branded chainsaw or a spare part for example outside their dealer network is taking their life in their hands.)

 

If you buy one of these direct from a pirate you immediately become part of the problem.

 

When you boil it down though to me Spike Milligan's immortal line always comes to mind: "I thought I'd sing you one of Cole Porter's songs. And then I thought why should I? He never sings any of mine."

Edited April 11, 2021 by Junior8

[paulears]

I take the point, but I could buy one of these, which offer vastly more than a five hundred quid control from any other source. There is also a growing shift in big names sourcing product manufacture to the Far East. The production cost for somebody making product in world wide numbers must be less than smaller factories making these things, so at some point in the chain from factory to user, where does the ten time or more hike in price come. So many firms now source product over there the old claims of poor quality and unreliability are sounding very hollow - when virtually everything is foreign sourced then imported. We also have difficulty in the difference between counterfeit, clone and grey import. I know of one well known manufacturer who has their products made over there, and the American versions suddenly had issues with compliance over there. I've been selling loads of genuine items here - the US spec models unable to be sold until they modify them over there, so I've been doing quite nicely. The UK main dealer is pretty unhappy, but resigned to it. They won't of course honour any warranty issues, but I bought enough spares to be able to offer people replacements under warranty and so far, there have been none. The Chinese moving head lights I bought twelve years ago and got the doom and gloom warnings here on the BR have seen out of 36 units, 2 faulty ones. One electronic, one mechanical.

 

I've changed my tune. I've had a year of no work to adjust my ethics on this subject, and now I'm quite happy to throw £500 on a control that will do the job for me. I think the closeness to AVO is a step too far for selling them, because that still tugs at me - but for using it myself? I'd happily do that and consider it very good value for money. What I don't know is if they have just copied the shape and buttons, or the OS too, or maybe copied a bit and changed other things. This was what I hoped somebody would tell me from their own experience. Perhaps I expected too much. I presume AVO are busy with their current models - these older products haven't featured for a while, so anyone buying AVO with the AVO budget wouldn't be swayed? I assume AVO are made in the UK, well apart from the components that aren't, or is that assembled in the UK with foreign made parts. The totally unreliable Chinese bits wouldn't be in there, would they? Or are we saying that Chinese parts might be OK when bought by the good guys but bad when bought by the others?

 

I remember Motorola being rather cross when the factory that made the components for their radios were left with piles of un-paid for components when models suddenly changed. So the factory gathered them up and had enough to put them together - which they did and sold on.

 

If brands have their products made abroad, and don't do the Behringer thing of actually buying the factory, then they have lost control of their own product. Are these elderly spec controls a threat when the current ones are all touch screen and posh? If they said AVO on them, then they would be counterfeit and like Gibson Guitars - things can be done. Look-alike products build down to IP action, and often it's unworkable to take action in foreign countries.

 

I have five hundred quid and want a control. Covid removed my income, I think the realities of self-employment rather than furloughing have changed my views on how I spend my money. First thing of course is to see how easy it is to build the library files - never done that on AVO, only MagicQ. No point buying one if it cannot work the lights. Did I mention these are Chinese too?

[Glyn Edwards]

Would it be "cheaper" / or "easier" to buy a second hand pearl from ebay or similar? By the time you've paid shipping, import duties etc I imagine that you'd be in the same ball park financially. I understand that from a commercial perspective buying new is preferable, but there is something to be said for having the "real thing", rather than a no name clone.

[J Pearce]

I suspect a lot of rentals would be keen to ‘realise assets’ so some of the older but still fully functional kit might be available for reasonable rates. A pearl tiger perhaps?

 

I understand Paul’s argument - especially in light of reduced income and the need to get on with making money, but respectfully disagree.

 

I try to honour the R&D expense that the ‘name’ manufacturers put in. I do buy cheap import bits, but nothing that crosses the line towards counterfeit/knockoff, usually accessories rather than products.

There are some great genuine own brand products being made in china, both for western names like Behringer and SE Electronics, and rebadgers like Thomann and Pulse, and these offer innovation and options that the western companies aren’t hitting.

Where a product is clearly a clone I’ll avoid it though, especially for something software based like a desk as support is likely to be patchy. (I might make exception for things like a 58 copy, as Shure have surely had time to make their investment back by now...)

[Mystic]

Can't you get a second hand Avo pearl 2000 for 200£ these days ? it is cheaper than these copies.

[ImagineerTom]

Chinese clone desks were very commonly supplied by the local lighting and sound hire companies that get used in our tents in the middle east; One single tent out there suffered more technical based show stops (the desk has crashed / I can't change the thing that fast, etc) than all our tented shows in Europe combined.

 

I'm also very uncomfortable with the fact that a moderator on a popular UK based technical theatre forum is actively boasting that he wants / sees no problem buying kit he KNOWS is stolen on some level and which will actively take the IP (on some level) of other members of this board. When someone comes on here and excuses their shoddy rigging design or crappy electrical installation with the line "I can't afford the proper kit" we always tell them that they can't afford to do it and when they say "it's only for my persona use" we point out they are still taking risks and taking money from others. I had always assumed that "best practice" was always the basic position of this board and in a situation where it's possible to buy the original legit item easily, or where there are non-cloned lighting control options available that have the same core ability it makes me incredibly uncomfortable to learn that a moderator so quickly starts typing paragraphs of linguistic contortion to try and excuse the sudden change of policy?

[Junior8]

Since 2000 I have heard/read every justification for buying and indeed selling clone, knock-off, grey market items, or what we call in the trade 'snide', there is including every one mentioned above. The most audacious was from another commentator who reckoned fakes were okay 'because nobody would think they were genuine at those prices'. I have also interviewed manufacturers at their wits end knowing that the copies will probably be on the same boat as the genuine stuff they are paying a manufacturer for. The commonest comment I was hearing in the finish was 'If I get 6 months to myself that's a result'. I had two decades of seeing this red in tooth and claw on the supply side, it wasn't a comfortable experience.

 

In the end it is personal choice of course but I do think Tom makes a good point.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Junior8

[indyld]

Avo and every other manufacturer can probably quantify the lost development time that is sunk into protecting their IP through designing each product line to make it harder to rip off.

 

It's not only wrong, the lost time and resource actually make the legit products we have access to less sophisticated than they could be, more expensive, and take longer to get them to market.

[Brian]

Why not go for a PC based solution, eg Chamsys or Avo, and add a MIDI control surface for faders?

[alistermorton]

The cost of developing hardware and software accounts for a large part of the difference in price between a knock off, where the development is really just copying, and a genuine product. Edited April 11, 2021 by alistermorton

[timsabre]

Anyway, to answer your original question I do know someone who has a Pearl knockoff similar to those pictured and as Tom suggests above it is the most electronically and mechanically unreliable thing ever. So aside from the ethical issues I still wouldn't do it.

 

What would you do when you needed personalities for fixtures? Would you really be happy to go download them off the Avo website knowing that you were using them on a clone desk which wasn't contributing in any way to the fixture library maintenance?

 

 

Avo's cheapest offering which can use external MIDI faders is the T2 USB dongle which is about £600. Add some MIDI faders for say £80 then you need a decent laptop... it's quite expensive. On the other hand that does give you the latest Titan software which is light years ahead of the old Pearl Classic software on the chinese copies - including built-in Capture visualiser. For Chamsys the mini-wing is a neat solution which you can get 2nd hand for £650, again needing a good laptop.

Edited April 11, 2021 by timsabre

[Brian]

£500 or thereabouts buys you the real thing...

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Avolites-Pearl-2004-DMX-Lighting-Desk-/383982780467

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Avolites-Pearl-Tiger-Lighting-desk-/383999747303