Chinese lighting controls

[musht]

"There Is Nothing in This World That Someone Cannot Make a Little Worse and Sell a Little Cheaper"

 

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2020/05/21/cheap/

 

Kinda covers why its cheap.

 

Year of no income,apart from profiting from grey imports, want faders like an expensive hardware desk , only got 500 quid for controls,because have a scaff grid in rented premises with LED flat panels and moving lites for filming commercial presentations....

 

It`s not a pitch seem to be getting much sympathy with Paul.

[dje]

There is also a growing shift in big names sourcing product manufacture to the Far East. The production cost for somebody making product in world wide numbers must be less than smaller factories making these things, so at some point in the chain from factory to user, where does the ten time or more hike in price come?

 

Basically:

 

- Expertise of designers, who design the product in the first place (none of which the pirates do)

- Expertise of electronics technicians and software developers who build the prototypes, test them, develop them and progress them to the point that they're ready for sale. (none of which the pirates do)

- Expertise of the engineers who check that they comply with all the relevant standards and buying the standard itself and having it CE marked etc etc (none of which the pirates do)

- Choice of the most suitable parts to make the product to a high standard (where the pirates just choose the cheapest)

- QC of the product to ensure that the end user gets something which fully works and is built to a standard where it can be expected to work every day for the rest of its life in show-critical environments (none of which the pirates do)

- Construction and provision of training facilities to ensure that everyone who owns and even uses the product is able to do so to the fullest extent of the product's capability (where the pirates couldn't care less, it's just a box)

- After sales support to ensure that issues are rectified at the speed which is necessitated by our show-critical industry. (Where the pirates will just shrug and maybe send you a new box if you're lucky which may or may not be the same thing you broke)

- Repairs and replacements on warranty (good luck with the pirates... warranty?)

- And basically, keeping a premises. Paying staff wages. Supporting education. Paying the bills. Investing in people and their careers.

 

Like somebody else said, I am shocked that a moderator on a British technical theatre forum is publicly advocating the theft of intellectual property and the use of unlicensed software (both of which are not just immoral but illegal) because it works out better on price.

Avolites are, frankly, a cornerstone of our stage lighting industry. They employ some fantastic people who have innovated and created and taken risks to produce the products that you now seem to see no harm in buying a plagiarised version of, as long as your bottom line is cheaper.

But don't take it from me, perhaps you should just call Avolites on Monday. Ask them, in their words - the people whose jobs will be gone when everybody just buys copies instead - why their products are nine or ten times the price? Maybe they can change your mind?

[david.elsbury]

Sounds like you’ve already made up your mind. But if you’re running a MagicQ setup already why not buy a dongle and keep going that way? At least you could keep the same sow file you already have...

[paulears]

I've got a couple of dongles David, but I want something freestanding - where I can apply power, shove the faders and lights come up. I don't want to use a computer, mouse and monitor - I have a flight case top that be just the right size - add a computer and much less convenient. Clearly I'm on my own here, which I do get - but rather hoped I wasn't a pioneer.

[timsabre]

The thing is I do some work for Avo and I know their software people personally so this is close to home for me. They've gone through an immense struggle to keep their business going in the face of the clones and then with Covid.

This is not some faceless international corporation and as a small UK business they deserve our support.

 

Drop Ric Salzedo or Steve Warren a line and they'll help you understand how these products affect them. ric@avolites.com

 

 

 

Meanwhile, please spend your £500 on a 2nd hand Pearl Tiger which doesn't contain ripped off firmware and will be more reliable than the chinese copies. And you can download your fixture personalities from Avo with a clear conscience.

Edited April 11, 2021 by timsabre

[ImagineerTom]

Paulears - it is with some irony I recall a PM conversation between us only a few months ago where you were complaining about venues and companies in your area using cheapest parts & shoddy practices that you thought were unethical or inappropriate. I’d be keen to hear (in a genuine non- sarcastic question) why you felt those people cutting corners with no regards to other people / business safety / durability / comfort was a terrible thing but you doing something essential the same is something you can rationalise?

[musht]

"apply power, shove the faders and lights come up"

 

TBH possibly biggest gotcha with these, good switches,and there's a lot of them,cost money, same with faders.

 

Control surfaces with decent components are not cheap to assemble.

 

To hit a price point ,a lot has been ,er,cost engineered.To look like the right thing,it's frustrating to buy something that isn't quite the real thing...

[bigclive]

These days, software has become such a key component in products that if companies wish to outsource hardware manufacture, then by by all means do so, but NEVER share the software if you can lock it securely in a microcontroller.

 

The design and layout of a lighting desk is useless if the company wanting to copy it can't get their hands on the original software. They can get someone else to emulate the software, but if it's written by someone who doesn't have a deep understanding of what is needed, then you get bug-riddled software that looks the part, but is so unstable and unintuitive that it renders it unfit for professional use.

 

Having written what turned out to be a very desirable bit of software in the past, I quickly learned (the hard way) to only supply it on locked microcontrollers. I was really surprised by the manipulative and sometimes aggressive techniques people used to try and get me to send them the hex file or assembly code so they could remove me from the equation.

 

 

A really good example of a slip-up allowing your product to be mass cloned is the classic ELM327 vehicle diagnostics interface.

Elm Electronics is a British company who released a very clever bit of software on a PIC microcontroller, but didn't lock the first version. If you go on eBay and simply search for ELM327 you'll find thousands of listings for clones of their product with the stolen software in them.

[David Lee]

This has to be rock bottom for the blue room. A mod promoting knock off goods. No excuse really.

[paulears]

Well don't worry! I have resigned - so long and thanks for the slagging off today - you went too far with the accusations. Paul

[sandall]

Time for everyone to take five ?

[dje]

Well don't worry! I have resigned - so long and thanks for the slagging off today - you went too far with the accusations. Paul

 

Bit drastic.

 

I don't think anyone is judging your ability to moderate. And I don't think anyone went too far.

Maybe you need to take a moment and look at this from another angle rather than just throwing the teddies out of the pram.

 

Counterfeiting, whether like total counterfeiting (ie trying to pass a fake off as the real thing) or just stealing the IP and offering a product somebody else developed as your own (usually at a fraction of the cost) is, I don't think it can be denied, ethically wrong.

But not only is it ethically wrong, it is deeply harmful to the companies who produce the original equipment at great expense in terms of design, build, development and support.

 

The Blue Room rules states the following:

 

The Blue Room does not allow any illegal activities. Nor may you discuss anything relating to illegal activities

Frankly, the theft of intellectual property in producing fake consoles is illegal (well - it may not be in the country of manufacture, but it is here) as is the hacking of copyrighted software such that it can be installed on counterfeit consoles.

Therefore I think it is not beyond fair assumption to suggest that condoning (or indeed, even just discussing) the manufacture, supply, purchase and use of counterfeit lighting consoles is in direct contravention of the forum policies.

 

I think you are a valued moderator Paul and nobody is calling for your head on a pike... but maybe you will wake up in the morning and realise that, no matter your financial circumstances (because everyone's had a tough year - Avolites included), coming on a British technical theatre forum where you are meant to represent the law and the higher ground; and advocating the purchase and use of counterfeit consoles which are a direct rip-off of a British-made lighting console, in a manner which is known to harm that company; was, by all accounts, really daft. I hope you'll look at this fresh at 10am Monday morning and realise it was a stupid thing to say and that an apology and a reality check would be more than enough to get yourself back on track.

[Stuart91]

(or indeed, even just discussing)

 

I'd take slight issue with this, Paul essentially asked a question that might occur to anyone who spots one of these consoles and isn't aware of the underlying issues. Many of the replies in this thread, whilst forcefully made, have been quite enlightening. Plus there was some genuinely useful advice and alternatives offered. Hopefully anyone from Avo reading through will be heartened by the support and affection for their company.

 

I think it'd be counter-productive if any post that mentions less-than-genuine consoles is instantly nuked. This thread, imperfect as it is, stands as a pretty good example of how open discussion can work.

[Brian]

Hmmm, I do wonder how many of those people berating Paul, for openly thinking about something that many of us will have considered, can honestly say that they have never installed any unlicensed software on their PC?

 

Be it cracked software, a keygen, installing a second copy on your laptop as well as the desktop, borrowing a mates serial number, using student editions when you're clearly not, or using software for a commercial end when such use is prohibited. Let's face it, none of us read the licence and really know what we're allowed to do under it, but that's no defence.

 

 

[E2A]

Does anyone DEFINITIVELY know that these desks use stolen software from AVO? There is a world of difference between software which is written to look and feel like another, and simply taking an existing executable binary.

[timsabre]

I know for a fact that SOME of these desks use stolen software from Avo. The fact that the ones pictured use Avo's personality library without permission is a strong indicator, also the button labelling has some of the more esoteric Avo buttons. But of course when ordering from China you never know what you are going to get, so without ordering one of the desks and testing it, I couldn't say for sure. The software has been modified to use a different LCD display but it's based on disassembly of the original Avo software - the Chinese factories are very good at taking a compiled binary file and making modifications to it.

 

 

Ric Salzedo at Avo does a lot of work tracking down clone consoles, and was very much involved with the Pearl Classic software. He would almost certainly have a definite answer.

 

 

I'm sorry Paul has felt it necessary to take the action he has, but I do disagree with his position on this.