Proposed EU Regulations That Would Ban All Theatrical Fixtures - Not J

[sleah]

For me, my current biggest pet-hate when it comes to going LED is spaghetti. My dream is a data socket alongside each power outlet. No faffing about daisy-chaining DMX cables between fixtures and running cables front-to-back, left-to-right, blah blah.

You can of course reduce spaghetti by using DMX distros at IWB level, but not by a great deal.

 

IWB with integrated Artnet node + DMX distro with internal power and data cabling has to be the way forward, for new installs anyway.

 

At least with halogen, it's lift on to bar, plug in power, job done - then the focus :)

[IRW]

The whole business of trying to get a bit more efficiency out of a dying technology, is IMHO comparable to the last gasps of the gas lighting industry two generations ago.

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*cough*tallescope add-ons*cough*

http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif

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[richardash1981]

In my view, requiring that most theatres replace most of their lantern stock by 2025 IS reasonable.

 

In commercial world, retail/office/hotel, 7 year refurb cycle used to be typical, it`s economic to bin and replace, the installed lighting load may be a substantial part of the annual energy consumption, total cost gets amortised quickly.

 

Theatre has traditionally survived on an eco system where older equipment gets a new life further down the food chain.

 

Far East manufacturing has managed to drive costs down so perhaps that is less of an issue.

 

The 2025 date assumes that you can stock up on lamps in 2020 (i.e. have cash which can be tied up for 5 years - many amateur groups will not, or will need to be saving it for LED fittings!

 

There is a hit even for the more affluent venues which may look to turn their lantern stock over within 5 years - at the moment, they probably sell the lanterns second hand. The second hand value of a lantern you can't get lamps for is presumably almost zero (certain Strands excepted), so the replacement cycle just got more expensive.

And of course those of use on the bottom of the chain just found the lantern supply dried up.

 

I will shortly be cleaning PATT123s for another outing at church. The bulbs do last a good while, but it only takes a clumsy focus to blow one, and then you have to re-lamp. Replacing a pair of open white fresnels with something which dims to black and looks good on skin tones is just not affordable if fixtures start at near £1000 each! LED PAR cans do not cut it, useful though they are. There is of course no supply of second hand LED theatre fittings because of the lifetime and maintainability issues which others have highlighted - even as an professional electronic engineer, I can't realistically fix most LED SMPSU drivers or replace dead LEDs glued to heatsinks.

 

I can see the price of second hand R7s flood fittings (Strand Cantata etc.) going up a lot!

[alistermorton]

A three cell coda on the bay will currently set you back /about/ a ton but that could well escalate.

[adam2]

My estimated date of 2025 for non availability of replacement halogen lamps was presuming some stocking up by distributors. Many types of d0m3stic incandescent lamp are still available "whilst existing stocks last" from reputable suppliers, despite production or import having banned for some years.

 

Any stocking up by end users would be in addition.

 

 

 

[musht]

Lightbulb ban was never properly introduced to UK statute, something about it being tacked on to another bill, its not illegal to import or sell them in UK.

 

Other question is does South Africa or Australia have any similar ideas or will they still have 220/240V tungetn theatre lamps available.

 

At a push how much is a reasonable size 240/120 transformer cost ;-) ?

 

What will happen to shows lit for tungsten on Broadway when they transfer to an LED only West End?

[adam2]

Decent quality 240 volt to 120 volt transformers are expensive, and there is the question of where to put them ? A transformer for each lantern would be awkward, and a transformer at the dimmer input would probably need new dimmers, and possibly new cabling between dimmer and lamp as the current would be doubled.

 

Building site transformer would not really be suitable because they have a 110 volt output which will seriously reduce the light output of lamps designed for 120 volts.

 

It is possible to work 120 volt lamps via dimmer from a 240 volt supply, by adjusting the dimmer presets such that the maximum output is limited to 120 volts rms. This does however halve the capacity in watts of the dimmers.

 

 

 

[sunray]

Decent quality 240 volt to 120 volt transformers are expensive, and there is the question of where to put them ? A transformer for each lantern would be awkward, and a transformer at the dimmer input would probably need new dimmers, and possibly new cabling between dimmer and lamp as the current would be doubled.

Building site transformer would not really be suitable because they have a 110 volt output which will seriously reduce the light output of lamps designed for 120 volts.

It's worse than that, they are rated for tool use and the regulation is poor, realistically the voltage drops several percent quite quickly.

It is possible to work 120 volt lamps via dimmer from a 240 volt supply, by adjusting the dimmer presets such that the maximum output is limited to 120 volts rms. This does however halve the capacity in watts of the dimmers.

Not a good option at the peak voltage is still 320 (230*1.4) and lamp life is definitely reduced

[Nicktaylor]

In my view, requiring that most theatres replace most of their lantern stock by 2025 IS reasonable. 2025 being my estimate as to when replacement lamps might become hard to find. LED theatre lighting is greatly improved, and will no doubt get better still over the next few years. Remember that restrictions on the manufacture or import of halogen lamps apply to d0m3stic use and to other trades and industries, thereby driving research into better and cheaper LED lighting equipment.

 

In a well used venue the electricity saving will be significant.

 

In a typical church hall or village hall with a little used and largely fixed rig of a dozen ancient strand lanterns, half a dozen spare lamps per lantern should last decades.

 

Small touring or mobile rigs would be better changed to LED due to the limited power availability in many venues, and the saving on lamp breakages in transit.

 

Incandescent lighting is going the way of gas lighting, oil lamps and carbon arcs, all of which are still used in a few niche applications but not for general everyday lighting.

 

On the basis many small theatres are still using 123s etc, maybe with a conversion to a modern lamp, exactly for economic reasons, I think your statement that 2025 is plenty of time for an economic transition rather overstating things . I use plenty of led stuff now but am replacing kit after a few years of not over intensive work, and yet have almost never had to replace a 743 or minuette or whatever. There will be many a small hall that will close up shop to stage shows if this is forced through, or at least outsource the cost to the performing group which will in may cases have the same effect.

[Jevans]

Or perhaps a market will open up in producing decent quality direct replacement LED dimmable 'lamps' - see what ETC have done with the Source 4WRD. Of course, due to the quantities involved, they wouldn't be cheap...

[alistermorton]

... plus as Tim (amongst others) has (repeatadly) pointed out, they wont dim the same at tbe bottom end where, arguably, it's most noticeable.

[Junior8]

I will shortly be cleaning PATT123s for another outing at church. The bulbs do last a good while, but it only takes a clumsy focus to blow one, and then you have to re-lamp. Replacing a pair of open white fresnels with something which dims to black and looks good on skin tones is just not affordable if fixtures start at near £1000 each! LED PAR cans do not cut it, useful though they are. There is of course no supply of second hand LED theatre fittings because of the lifetime and maintainability issues which others have highlighted - even as an professional electronic engineer, I can't realistically fix most LED SMPSU drivers or replace dead LEDs glued to heatsinks.

 

 

There is much in what you say of course and I love to see 123s 243s etc still working away. But the fact is that the youngest of these will be over 40 years old now and many much older. A 'grey hammer' 243 bought in 1970 cost £32 and a 123 £12 - amortised over the intervening period that's 66p and 25p a year. (I'll bet in all cases they've had a longer life that the floods and mirror spots they replaced which in their day too were state of the art.) That they've lasted this long is a testament to quality and utility but any amateur group/little theatre who bought them back then had to find today's equivalent of £777 for the 243 and £291 for the 123. Those of us still using this kit have simply been dead lucky that we haven't had to reinvest and maybe now is the time to take stock, I'll bet there's no other tech kit in the building anywhere near the same age. After all stockpiling of tungsten lamps against this ban gives a breathing space to see what happens next and fund raise ready to spend at the same levels as those who went before.

 

 

 

 

[musht]

As an aside about equipment lasting the InterCity 125 was launched in 1976 and is still backbone of rail system 42 years on.

 

B52 Bomber is expected to be kept in service until at lesat late 2020`s from 1950`s, service life of over 70 years.

 

Both of those examples create a lot more pollution than a few theatre lights..

 

Back at the topic ALD petition

 

https://www.change.org/p/the-eu-energy-directorate-keep-stage-lighting-exempt-from-proposed-legislation-changes

[StuartS]

Perhaps we should also spare a thought for those looking for lamps for practicals.

[alistermorton]

Stockpile while you can.