smalljoshua Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Hi All, I'm currently putting together concepts for a small euro tour which will be happening in November, the artist (who has just come off a much larger tour as a support act) wants to put his own mark on his sound and image. As part of this, we're wanting to suspend about 30-40 bare lamps around the stage (he wants to be "immersed" in them). Not all of the venues have great rigging, some none at all. All have floors they're happy for us to screw into however and we're looking to capitalise on this by bringing in some tank traps and scaff. We'll be suspending either rope (that looks like 24mm ish hemp line or similar) or fishing net (new, but distressed) throughout this, we'll have a 3 circuit "main" cable running (either behind the rope or up and down the fishing net with a quantity of t-off boxes tapping a circuit at each point we have a pendent hanging down (between 0.5 and 2m from the line). My main concerns are: A) I need to find sources of fishing net or rope that is flame retardantB) When rigging from 2.5m-4m high scaff poles, what sort of tension can I expect to get from them? I'm aware I could use a pipe and drape system to form the frame but they're silver and will be on show so I'd rather not if possible. the current plan isn't to have any blacks between the poles to create a box stage as we want it to feel a bit more open/spacey than that in most venues. Any ideas? Cheers, Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave m Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 are these mains lights? or LED?do they dim or all stay on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalljoshua Posted October 16, 2015 Author Share Posted October 16, 2015 Mains, Both. I've got the electronics side sorted inc discrete looms etc. It's purely the mechanical aspects I'm concentrating on here. Thanks, Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madorangepanda Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Why not wrap/braid the scaff in rope or twine so that it's made to look similar to the net? If you go for size 6/33.7mm tube and key clamps the overall diameter won't be too big compared to the rope you are already proposing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerry davies Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Years back we did a gig with lots of scaff tube and wrapped it in cloth but it took time. What you could do is use strips of hessian sewn into tubes to slip over the relevant shiny bits. As for flame proofing rope, nets etc then if they are nylon they will be pretty flame resistant inherently. It might melt onto lanterns but combustion is difficult. Any hemp would soak up Flambar nicely so I see a cunningly worded RA and a little care as your obvious get-out. A fire extinguisher placed stageside and someone briefed on use would be good. Screwing to the floor is one solution but would pipe-and-drape without drape be possible? As this is touring time saving is crucial and if thye system is well enough designed it could be almost as stable..... as long as s/he doesn't climb all over it!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave m Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 I did a google and came up with a sports net company who do all sorts including " flame retardant" - nylon based. the mesh size might be an issue but a couple of hours careful snipping every other 2" square to make 4" might be possible? ( or whatever) most nets are made to be visible i.e. hi viz old fishing net was tarred, modern ones seem to be sort of orange baler twine type stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 The biggest issue may be getting something that's compliant with several sets of national regulations, in several different languages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.elsbury Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 You can get ultra thin steel wire (think safety bonds) including in black. That plus gripples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 Net, cable and lamps suspended in tension across the top of tank traps and uprights is going to put a lot of force on the top of the stands and risk the structure. Add the top pipes and the collapse risk is reduced. Have you considered standing the lamps on and up from the floor, like a forest of standard lamps? I'd like the idea largely because it instantly translates into all languages without problems -it's a lamp on a stand. Go low energy and they are self contained with no trailing cables. I still fear that your language skills may not be up to discussing fire resistance/retardance/proofing etc in Spanish, Waloon and Danish (for example), to the satisfaction of all their local authority regulations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy_s Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 Highly unlikely to have a language problem in Denmark or Belgium I'd imagine. The people I've met from those countries generally seem to speak better English than me. (Though I see your point). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 My limited experience of language in Europe is that some places and people speak more English than others, and some speak better English that the average Brit. BUT I wouldn't want to turn up at a receiving house at 4pm to find that the doorman speaks little technical English and the show then being at risk. A lamp on a stand is normal for them, a lamp on a net on tank traps may not be normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy_s Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 My limited experience of language in Europe is that some places and people speak more English than others, and some speak better English that the average Brit. BUT I wouldn't want to turn up at a receiving house at 4pm to find that the doorman speaks little technical English and the show then being at risk. A lamp on a stand is normal for them, a lamp on a net on tank traps may not be normal. apologies. My remarks were somewhat tongue in cheek and I understood your point completely. but my experience of dealing with Europeans involved in the theatre world in Denmark, Belgium and Portugal is that their English is pretty strong, technical or otherwise. Of course, the music business might be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portytech Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 You can get ultra thin steel wire (think safety bonds) including in black. That plus gripples? Flints do a a thing for that see here last page> crossover clamps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trussmonkey Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 its called Combination Rope. it is fibre rope with a steel wire rope core. Its mainly used for playgrounds but you can terminate it and it would probably be what your looking for. It s not normally used in this industry but ive used it to make a cargo net for a show. the cargo net is immersed in water for its whole life and has 10 x 90 kg performers climbing up and down it. Its really strong stuff. Combination Rope Linky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyld Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 B) When rigging from 2.5m-4m high scaff poles, what sort of tension can I expect to get from them? I'm aware I could use a pipe and drape system to form the frame but they're silver and will be on show so I'd rather not if possible. the current plan isn't to have any blacks between the poles to create a box stage as we want it to feel a bit more open/spacey than that in most venues. Do I take it this is question is related to design of catenaries and similar? eg. You are planning to impose a tensile force between the tops of poles on tank traps? (I've got something similar being discussed at the moment but our solution won't be appropriate for you because I don't want to use a tank trap + tensile washing line setup) Perhaps your question on how much tension to 'expect' is really a question of how to work out the tensile load plus the force from the attached objects? Structural Design For The Stage has advice on this in the catenaries section, including the calculation of tensile loads and recommends parabolic (I.e easier) calcs for any sag under 25% of the span. Based on a 'worst case' for an even simpler method, it advises you calculate the imposed load along the length as a point load in the centre of the span and then use the intended sag to Pythag this to a resolution. It's still pretty involved but it would answer the question of 'how much' in that you decide on your acceptable sag and then work out if the system can stand up to this tension. Not sure if that helps or even if I've understood your plan, but there we are. R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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