Krossteck Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 Hi All. On Friday night set up I noticed a new power cable, it was for the bass players pedal board. I pointed out that I did not consider a 13A mains plug, using 2 core mains cable to a 3 pin XLR (F) plug a safe mains connector, A heated discussion followed. The lead guitarist, ( a highly qualified electrical engineer ) who made the lead as a favour for the Bass player strongly disagreed with me, A heated discussion followed. The Bass player asked me if it was safe to use, I pointed out that in my opinion the cable was, at least dangerous, & at best would not pass a PAT test. A heated discussion followed. The show went on after I suggested that the cable the cable should at least be fitted to one of my mains extensions fitted with RCD breaker. On Saturdays night set up, the lead guitarist gave me a specification sheet for a XLR jack SCXl100 stating a rating of 250V (ac) @ 6A A heated discussion followed. The cable is still in use, I shake my bowed head slowly (Sheldon style). I took some photos on my phone, but I cannot find how to get them into this listing. Any comments would be welcome. Ta George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 Quite simply, NO. Whilst the XLR is indeed RATED at 250v, it is most certainly NOT a viable connector for use with mains power. Pretty much all XLRs have a metal shell, which means that at the very least there is a chance that the live wire could easily come into contact with that shell and cause shocks. Strain relief on an XLR is also FAR from acceptable, and as such is another potential danger area. And of course there is also an even bigger risk of someone plugging the end of a mic or signal line XLR3 into that power cord and risking not only further shock hazard but also a fairly certain demise of any audio kit connected the other end! To be honest, this is one of those times where I would personally feel justified in taking a pair of cutters to the offending article and quickly doing so! Then attaching a label clearly stating why. ESPECIALLY if this is in your venue. E2A... Neutrik do in fact market a mains rated XLR, but with some VERY marked differences. Notably the fact that it has a plastic insert and the pins are positioned such that it can NOT be inserted into any other audio type plug/sockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 ...a highly qualified electrical engineer... Why do I shudder every time I here that phrase? On Saturdays night set up, the lead guitarist gave me a specification sheet for a XLR jack SCXl100 stating a rating of 250V (ac) @ 6A Doesn't mean a thing. Mains connectors for audio equipment are covered by BS EN 60065:2002. Section 15.1.1 says...Plugs and appliance couplers for the connection of the apparatus to the mains...shall comply with the relevant IEC standards for plugs and socket-outlets, appliance couplers or interconnection couplers. Examples of the relevant IEC publications are: IEC 60083, IEC 60320, IEC 60884 and IEC 60906. XLRs do not meet any of those standards and are not covered by any IEC standard for mains connectors. Therefore you are correct and he is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 On Saturdays night set up, the lead guitarist gave me a specification sheet for a XLR jack SCXl100 stating a rating of 250V (ac) @ 6AHmmm... SCXL100 And The lead guitarist, ( a highly qualified electrical engineer ) also seems an oxymoron... :D :D :D ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 Well - it's a stupid thing to do, runs contrary to common sense, industry practice and wellbeing - but in isolation, not dangerous. It becomes dangerous when used in an inappropriate manner. In a risk assessment, it would be deemed unsafe. The connector itself is indeed rated to be able to handle the current and voltage. Consider this. A 13A moulded cable with a figure of 8, two pin reversible connector. Perfectly legitimate and considered safe by everyone. So what about this then?http://www.limelight.org.uk/betafig8.jpgThe mains connector fits perfectly into a Beta 58. I've never seen anybody include these in risk assessments. Certainly, it's the wrong use for the connector. The dangers of accidental electrocution are very high - especially when the connector is so widely assumed to be an audio only connector. It would indeed fail a PAT carried out by somebody in the audio business as very dangerous, and bad practice. It would, however, pass a test carried out by somebody who had never seen a 3 pin XLR before, and who diligently checked the specification. Somebody could even construe the spec as being fine for 2 or 3 conductor mains use. 1 - Earth, then two further pins 2 & 3. If they delved deeper, they'd even perhaps see the details about the design making sure earth connected first, and unconnected last - again, very good points for a mains voltage capable connector. People do use the wrong connectors - but although none of us would use them for this purpose, an 'electrician' might well feel threatened by being told his reading of the specs is wrong. If your engineer guitarist researches audio connectors, he will find that connector, if he researches mains connectors, he won't. He will also discover that a risk assessment - considered essential by many venues - would conclude use of the connector is unacceptable - and as stupid as my example with a fig-8 connector, which clearly could, but shouldn't be used with a microphone! His cable would be just as dangerous if it was left behind and used by somebody who didn't know any better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 13A to 3-pin XLRF? I'd suggest a simple demo in the presence of both of these f*ckwits - take the cable in question, plug the XLR end into the back of an SM58, give it to one of them to hold, and then suggest they plug the other end into the wall and switch on. Then ask them to explain to you exactly why they think it's safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sclg Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 I too have a degree in electrical engineering and I'd agree with everyone else here. Just because a connector is rated at 250v doesn't make it an acceptable mains connector! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birt Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 if I'm responsible in that venue there is only one way he is allowed to use this; with a drop of glue, so he can NEVER unplug the XLR anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomHoward Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 Off the top of my head Neutrik 3-pin are only rated to 50V rather than 250V anyway, so unless the datasheet was the specific connector used, most likely it would be Neutrik so lower rating anyway. The other thing is that in any other environment it might be more acceptable (I've come across XLRs used for battery connectors on sports equipment and that kind of thing) but on stage where it could be mixed with may other 3-pin XLR plugs and sockets it isn't acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrV Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 As a matter of interest, what was the make of pedal board which was using this as a mains inlet? Or was it a piece of home-made gear?Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathanhill Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 Neutrik do in fact market a mains rated XLR, but with some VERY marked differences. Notably the fact that it has a plastic insert and the pins are positioned such that it can NOT be inserted into any other audio type plug/sockets. The mains rated Neutrtik XLR is no longer manufactured. Neutrik are now exclusively manufacturing and marketing their powerCON range of connectors for low voltage applications. Neutrik rate all of their XLR's at 50V. I am not sure that I would trust the Taiwanese manufacturers who claim that their product is rated at 250V with no accreditation from any body such as UL etcetera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p.k.roberts Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 Neutrik do in fact market a mains rated XLR, but with some VERY marked differences. Notably the fact that it has a plastic insert and the pins are positioned such that it can NOT be inserted into any other audio type plug/sockets. The mains rated Neutrtik XLR is no longer manufactured. Neutrik are now exclusively manufacturing and marketing their powerCON range of connectors for low voltage applications. Neutrik rate all of their XLR's at 50V. I am not sure that I would trust the Taiwanese manufacturers who claim that their product is rated at 250V with no accreditation from any body such as UL etcetera. If you follow the link to the LNE connectors from Canford, you will also see this warning, "Note: The LNE range of connectors is not suitable for mains connections to equipment for domestic use as defined in the Low Voltage Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations 1989." So even they would not be fit for purpose. The OP might also want to refer the 'highly qualified electrical engineer' to BS7909 section 7.3.4 'Connectors'. The thing that rankles with me is it's not just himself he is placing in danger and it sounds as though this has been done as much through arrogance as ignorance. Sadly, all you can really do is issue a pre-posthumous Darwin Award and walk away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldradiohand Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 Well, I'm fairly sure that an XLR connector (neatly wired and sleeved) would happily take 240v without any harm to it at all. But I suspect a two pole jack would as well. I've even seen a 13A to "U" link lead ("it's for drying out waterlogged telephone cables" - I'm fairly sure the fuse was missing and the plug top was araldited on.) This "highly qualified" electrician/guitarist is clearly an idiot.And how come nobody likes the bass player? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krossteck Posted September 29, 2013 Author Share Posted September 29, 2013 Hi All. During the heated debate with the guitarist I said that the XLR connector was only rated @ 50V. I found the 250V rating component he mentioned, Global Sources SCXL100, it is listed as a PC mount plastic socket. It dose state a rating of 250V @ 6A, however as the guitarist works in the industrial sector, their are obviously high voltage versions available. ( possibly for instrumentation purposes) However the use the said connector in this particular way was in my opinion not acceptable. The matching male component was a metal chassis mount, fixed to a plastic box, possibly holding a PSU to supply the pedal boards. ( the XLR connectors used I think are Neutrik ) I have offered to fit connector that I consider acceptable, however this will put the Bass player is a position of choosing between the two of us. I vote for me of course, & I am happy to leave this as a score draw, as long as I am happy that safety comes first. I use similar XLR connectors with the same colour cable on the same side of the stage, I still cannot get the images from Dropbox to this post. Thanks again George 13A to 3-pin XLRF? I'd suggest a simple demo in the presence of both of these f*ckwits - take the cable in question, plug the XLR end into the back of an SM58, give it to one of them to hold, and then suggest they plug the other end into the wall and switch on. Then ask them to explain to you exactly why they think it's safe. Hi Gareth. I would love to do something like that, but all the microphones on the show are mine, apart from the main singer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Pearce Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 A metal chassis connector on 2 core cable, where's the earth then? It would be hard to achieve double insulated in an XLR connector. Change the chassis for a powercon and then make/buy a proper 3 core powercon lead, because a non earthed one would be dodgy to have lying around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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