Is this doing someone a favour

[Krossteck]

A metal chassis connector on 2 core cable, where's the earth then? It would be hard to achieve double insulated in an XLR connector.

 

Change the chassis for a powercon and then make/buy a proper 3 core powercon lead, because a non earthed one would be dodgy to have lying around.

 

Hi J

 

the pic that I cannot show, shows 2 core cable ( it is at least fitted with a 3A fuse )

 

I have suggested a standard euro lead connector can be easily fitted.

 

at least if the cable is lost any cable will work.

 

 

Thanks again

 

Well, I'm fairly sure that an XLR connector (neatly wired and sleeved) would happily take 240v without any harm to it at all. But I suspect a two pole jack would as well. I've even seen a 13A to "U" link lead ("it's for drying out waterlogged telephone cables" - I'm fairly sure the fuse was missing and the plug top was araldited on.) This "highly qualified" electrician/guitarist is clearly an idiot.

And how come nobody likes the bass player?

 

Hi There

 

The Bass player is a canny young lad who works in the computing sector.

 

I would really like him to live long & prosper. ( not frying tonight )

 

He even likes real ale, like me, ( oh and so dose the lead guitarist )

 

Thanks George

 

Well - it's a stupid thing to do, runs contrary to common sense, industry practice and wellbeing - but in isolation, not dangerous. It becomes dangerous when used in an inappropriate manner. In a risk assessment, it would be deemed unsafe. The connector itself is indeed rated to be able to handle the current and voltage. Consider this. A 13A moulded cable with a figure of 8, two pin reversible connector. Perfectly legitimate and considered safe by everyone.

So what about this then?

http://www.limelight.org.uk/betafig8.jpg

The mains connector fits perfectly into a Beta 58. I've never seen anybody include these in risk assessments.

 

Certainly, it's the wrong use for the connector. The dangers of accidental electrocution are very high - especially when the connector is so widely assumed to be an audio only connector. It would indeed fail a PAT carried out by somebody in the audio business as very dangerous, and bad practice. It would, however, pass a test carried out by somebody who had never seen a 3 pin XLR before, and who diligently checked the specification. Somebody could even construe the spec as being fine for 2 or 3 conductor mains use. 1 - Earth, then two further pins 2 & 3. If they delved deeper, they'd even perhaps see the details about the design making sure earth connected first, and unconnected last - again, very good points for a mains voltage capable connector.

 

People do use the wrong connectors - but although none of us would use them for this purpose, an 'electrician' might well feel threatened by being told his reading of the specs is wrong.

 

If your engineer guitarist researches audio connectors, he will find that connector, if he researches mains connectors, he won't. He will also discover that a risk assessment - considered essential by many venues - would conclude use of the connector is unacceptable - and as stupid as my example with a fig-8 connector, which clearly could, but shouldn't be used with a microphone! His cable would be just as dangerous if it was left behind and used by somebody who didn't know any better!

 

Hi Paulears.

 

I agree with everything you said. I do not want to get into an argument with anyone, but as always safety comes first.

 

I remember in the 70's fixing a bingo sound system in a working mens club that had 13A plugs on the microphones, when I pointed out the danger I did at least get the job of replacing the connectors.

 

even in those days to XLR Cannon connectors, one microphone was faulty however, there was not much left incide.

 

Thanks again George

[dbuckley]

Well, I'm fairly sure that an XLR connector (neatly wired and sleeved) would happily take 240v without any harm to it at all. But I suspect a two pole jack would as well.

 

They do. As do three pole jacks.

 

Don't ask me how I know.

[Ynot]

I have offered to fit connector that I consider acceptable, however this will put the Bass player is a position of choosing between the two of us.

 

Actually, no. That would mean the bass player choosing to follow the correct advice and have the job done PROPERLY rather than in some halfarsed fashion by a guy who quite honestly should know better!

 

Like I say - anything that came into my venue like this WOULD get the royal snip without question.

[Funky Dave]

I'm surprised this is even being discussed, why would anyone want to use any type of audio connector for mains power! http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif There are plenty of options for mains power connectors and they are perfectly designed for the job. What's wrong with a standard 13a plug, or IEC or Powercon? What makes an XLR or a Jack plug a better option? Even if they are rated to take the power, why would you want to use a non-standard connection? It doesn't make any sense to me? And to call him a qualified electrical engineer? Where did he get his qualification?

 

As for the PAT test..... Our company has a PAT test machine and it doesn't have an XLR socket on it!

[Shez]

As for the PAT test..... Our company has a PAT test machine and it doesn't have an XLR socket on it!

Mine does, but it's for the flying earth lead. I did raise an eyebrow...

[Stuart91]

Fwiw the Neutrik LNE mains connectors were removed in quite a hurry from all BBC facilities, after someone got a belt that was attributed to one.

[GaryNattrass]

If I were you I would be doing two things:

 

1: Take the cable and plug it into a piece of their treasured gear such as a mic as paul showed or even better if the bass players amp has an XLR DI out I would plug it into that turn on the juice and watch the sparks fly!

 

2: Take some wire cutters and cut the XLR off and hand it to the idiot who made it!

 

Audio XLR's of the 3-pin kind should never be used to carry power of any kind DC or AC and only 4-pin XLR's should be used for low voltage and current DC for cameras or batteries etc.

 

Fwiw the Neutrik LNE mains connectors were removed in quite a hurry from all BBC facilities, after someone got a belt that was attributed to one.

 

and at ITV Tyne Tees some muppet managed to plug one into an audio XLR socket so they were removed from all use in the 80's.

[Oldradiohand]

Please don't cut this lead in half - you'll just leave a 13A to bare ends! Unwire the mains plug and recycle.....

LNE connectors dangerous? Nonsense! There was a case of a young lady plugging up a tape machine with an IEC on it who managed to get the live of the plug onto the earth of the socket. Led to a recommendation that the equipment end was always connected before the wall socket was.

[the kid]

IMHO cutting in half is bad. Damaging someone else's property ?

[grizzly]

Fwiw the Neutrik LNE mains connectors were removed in quite a hurry from all BBC facilities, after someone got a belt that was attributed to one.

 

Nah, they are still around, in many quiet corners. I was removing them from a bunch of powered speaker only a couple or three years ago.

 

and at ITV Tyne Tees some muppet managed to plug one into an audio XLR socket

 

I would dearly love to know how they managed that.

 

 

 

[Andrew C]

Nah, they are still around, in many quiet corners. I was removing them from a bunch of powered speaker only a couple or three years ago.

There is now a real problem with these, rather than a "some muppet forced one into the wrong hole so the safety drone thinks that they are dangerous" problem.

 

The plastic on the cord grip has degraded over time and all of the ones I'd bought second hand, and used for years, have now broken apart.

[Ynot]

IMHO cutting in half is bad. Damaging someone else's property ?

To trump that thought, in my venue I have a duty of care towards all those who use the place. So if I come across something inherently dangerous then I have not just the right but the duty to ensure that any such items are disposed of properly.

 

That will likely be an initial statement to the owner that an item is indeed putting them and others at risk and that they should remove said item.

 

If, as in the case of the OP, the owner declines to do so, if I have real and quantifiable concerns regarding the safety of my patrons, then I will exercise my rights as the duty holder and remove the item from use and prevent the use thereof in my presence - which may very well include the cutting off of the plug (usually at the 13A plug itself).

 

That said, I have NEVER had to exercise that option to date, as whenever I have come across risky items in the past the common sense approach has always prevailed. But I will reserve the right to do so should the situation demand.

 

 

 

Look at this another way - if the same band play another venue and a fault occurs (or the numpty plugs this lead into something it shouldn't) and some individual gets hurt or possibly even worse, what will you do when the courts ask the defendant about the lead and he says "Well, yer honour, it worked fine when we went to so-and-so's venue and they didn't say it was unsafe..."?

 

This lead is inherently UNSAFE therefore you have that duty of care to either convince the owner of that or (if they refuse to accept it) prevent it from being used as far as you possibly can. If that involves a pair of cutters, then I wouldn't hesitate.

 

Harsh?

Maybe, but better safe than sorry.

[fincaman]

The fact that this could be plugged accidentally into some other audio equipment is reason enough not to do it

[GaryNattrass]

IMHO cutting in half is bad. Damaging someone else's property ?

 

OK then I would burn it or throw it in the bin rather than have someone injured, killed or even Damaged! http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif

 

as for the mains XLR put into the audio one the guy in question was notorious for being heavy handed and somehow managed to get it in and bent some of the pins.

 

 

 

 

[paulears]

What I may do when I get the chance is to destroy the fake Shure I bought to demonstrate how dangerous this is. I'm thinking a youtube video. The only bit would be that I don't expect the capsule to fail in a way that's visually interesting. To push the point home, it would need to 'fail' a bit more theatrically. Then maybe finish with a voltmeter showing the housing to be live! I suspect that some people would need convincing of the real danger.

 

In my mind I'm seeing a stage floor with two or three XLR females laying there - one of which is the live one. Somebody grabs it and nearly plugs it into the microphone. Then what really happens.

 

Any comments?