Is this school Dimmer DMX, multiplex of something else?

[JAAMM]

Afternoon! Thanks for the replys :)

 

Firstly, the show is a talent show, done in a X Factor style, so really a mix of pupils/teachers singing. Also, it's not until Christmas but I'm just trying to get an idea of what needs doing (the more time they have the more chance things will happen). Nothings going to be setup until November so it's only plans ATM.

 

Now I total understand your concerns with regard to electrical safety & you may not believe me but please don't worry, my grandad was an electrician & I've been wiring stuff up since I was born and have a great understanding for the safety implication. I was going to go and do C&G 2330 + 17th edition and did loads of reading on that, but decided to stay at six form instead. I absolutely trust myself to know what's safe and what's not, & if I think something's not safe I say! Also as I say all my stuff is PAT tested this year as well as all the cable (some I have made, they were visually inspected and passed). I would only be happy about using this equipment because I will be present at all times to monitor it, I would not want to setup/ use it if I were not around. Also, it will be the teacher hanging the lights, I tell him what to do & we'll make sure the bars secure first & all the lights will have safety cables. He agrees to this fully.

 

Regards to the extra cans over the stage and on the floor, I will use dimmer pack, so they wont have anything to do with the old furse dimmer (which will be rendered obsolete as it lights are being removed) or the zerro 88 one (which is not being altered it's self an can be put back after).

 

Also, I'de love a haze machine but we already have 4 smoke machines (2 I made into low level fog machines with dryer pipe & ice!) & they won't hire one so they'll have to do! Thanks for the wood & fan idea :D

 

It's unfortunate they don't want to upgrade the lights, but as far as they can see they work & the year 8's have fun pushing the faders up & down at warp speed! Also, if new stuff was installed no one else would know how to use it, so it would depend if anyone was interested in learning.

 

 

 

Yeah I know the scanners are only their for the beams they will though down in the fog + I may now leave out the LED cans as as you say probably wont be worth the effort took to program them.

 

Thanks Everyone :)

 

PS - Updated the Par Cans to Fresnels, thanks.

[JAAMM]

I know I'm kind of clinging at straws here, and I know this probably wont work, but the idea entered my head, so I was hoping you could help me by ruling it out.

 

We have these dimmer packs:

 

http://common.zero88.com/public/images/Alpha2.jpg

 

I would be using the DMX input of course, but I know they also have analog input/outputs as well. I also know they work on HTP in terms of input, so do you think that they would output 3 analog channels with a DMX input, or does the analog output only work when theres an analog input?

 

I know it's unlikely...

 

Thanks again :D

[Brian]

I know it's unlikely...

Correct.

[JAAMM]

I know it's unlikely...

Correct.

 

Back to the drawing board! Thanks

[andy jackson]

Urgh I recognise those things!

 

We have some that are limping along, not the best made dimmers and ours have IEC patches on the front but I imagine the inners are pretty similar.

 

Obviously the health warning applies - I havent read the whole thread to cant establish if you are student or staff or the level of your competency.

 

When the Hall/Theatre is quiet turn on the breaker that is on the left - is there a small transformer buzz? turn it off and try the right breaker. if there is then there may be a DMX unit in there.

 

Alternatively on the right hand side of the unit there should be a small panel with a pair of din connectors and a DMX in and an out.

[Jamtastic3]

Urgh I recognise those things!

 

We have some that are limping along, not the best made dimmers and ours have IEC patches on the front but I imagine the inners are pretty similar.

 

 

 

I think the one in the picture is actually an Alphapack 2 which are pretty good pieces of equipment IMO. I wouldn't be comparing them to the cheaper 4 channel IEC units you can get for under a ton!

[JAAMM]

Hi Again, I posted last week, you probably remember and are now sick of me prattling on, so sorry! I thought I'd make this a new thread as it's kind of different.

 

Basically after talking with the teachers (and passing on advise from here) they are willing to spend £1500 on sorting things out. Now I know we should get a lighting company in to this ext... but we can't afford that (we only have about 3 shows a year anyway) so this is better than nothing.

 

I'll try and be as quick as possible.

 

Basically I've come up with this plan and just wondered whether you could pass judgment over it and point out any issues that you think are present, I'd be most grateful. Thanks!

 

Ok, this is the new view of the over stage lighting and the front of house:

 

http://tomlinson-net.org/james/school-lights/plan/new/1.jpg

http://tomlinson-net.org/james/school-lights/plan/new/2.JPG

 

 

The 500W Par 64's replace the furse fresnels and I'll leave the two black ones where they are, I'm sure there a type of profile light. Also, I think 8 LED cans per bar is a bit overkill now and may lower it to 6, good idea?

The 500W pars will plug into the existing IWB's and were going to get a demux (as suggested in the last thread, Thanks!) to convert the zerro 88 12 channel dimmer to DMX.

 

Over the stage current compartment batons (being removed): (The black curtain is the back of the stage)

 

http://tomlinson-net.org/james/school-lights/plan/old/1.JPG

 

The over hall lighting with the old freshnels (there are normally curtains over the windows & chairs but the halls being painted ATM)

 

http://tomlinson-net.org/james/school-lights/plan/old/14.JPG

 

The black lights I want to leave & some rather large lights which are on the sides of the hall aiming at the stage:

 

http://tomlinson-net.org/james/school-lights/plan/old/16.JPG

 

http://tomlinson-net.org/james/school-lights/plan/old/17.JPG

 

As far as control goes, I am gonna put the LED cans in pairs and get a 48 channel DMX desk. (and use magic Q when the scanners are used).

 

Also, we have an electrician to remove the batons and install some new sockets for the LED cans & Scanners.

 

I will be getting all the Par lights from Thomann.

Anywho, I'm finished, hope I've done OK and will look forward to receiving feedback :D

Thanks!!!

[PaulDF]

I think you'll be seriously over budget if you want a 48ch desk along with fixtures for £1500 along with routing DMX and power everywhere tbh.

 

Also, get the electrician to sort the pipe clamp on the armoured cable too (in the pic with the coke can in your other thread)!

[GridGirl]

Honest opinion? It will cost you far less in the long run if you get a lighting company in to look at it for you. Chances are they'll come in and give you some advice for nothing but a promise to use their services when it comes to buying and installation - and while you may get less gear, you'll get better quality gear which is well-suited for purpose. You're only a student and to be brutally honest, some professional advice is going to get you much further.

[JAAMM]

Hi, I've done a table showing cost, just does it, unless I've forgotten anything! There's already an XLR cable from the stage to the lighting box. Thanks & I'll tell him about the amoured cable.

 

 

http://tomlinson-net.org/james/school-lights/cost.JPG

[pritch]

As I've said in another similar post lately, check if your school or local authority has a list of approved suppliers. It's all very well costing up the stuff from Thomann or wherever, but if the school only has three possible places to get the kit from... forget it!

[Oovis]

Hi, I've done a table showing cost, just does it, unless I've forgotten anything! There's already an XLR cable from the stage to the lighting box. Thanks & I'll tell him about the amoured cable.

Not wanting to jump on your enthusiasm but I have a few questions;

 

How does VAT impact on those prices?

 

What prices can you get from local suppliers?

 

How would payment be made to ebay? Does the school have an account?

 

Have you added the cost of fitting UK plugs to the kit (a quick scan shows the LED cans on the Thomann site have Euro Shuko plugs)?

 

The LED cans take 5 channels of DMX per unit so will a 48 channel desk be enough?

 

You say the 'S' battens are being removed and you're replacing them with LED cans and your scanners. Do you have a student-friendly power supply for them? The battens would be dimmed but kit you're proposing needs switched mains.

 

Are you sure the data cable from FOH to ROH is suitable for DMX? Might as well do the job properly if you're trying to replace it all but you've not priced it.

 

What sort of shows do you show in the hall? You seem to be proposing a rig for music gigs, is only two profiles FOH enough? What if you get a three-piece act? Someone won't be lit..

 

In a post on the 15th in another thread you said

I may now leave out the LED cans as as you say probably wont be worth the effort took to program them.

but now they're back. I'm confused..

 

 

I'll stop here...

[Ynot]

This is going to seem like everyone is pouring cold water on your plans BUT please bear in mind that there are a LOT of people with considerable real world experience here, so advice is being given from that basis.

 

Now, whilst your £1500 may very well get you the items you list, when it comes to schools, the best option is seldom the cheapest. By definition, budget options are rarely ideal, as build quality means less use/misuse before things start to fall apart.

 

Firstly the LED Pars - Even using 16 of those on a stage that size is just not going to cut the mustard like even half that number of decent fresnels. Yes, you'll get a better range of colour mix from LEDs but the coverage is going to be VERY patchy.

 

I'm assuming your 13A 4-gangs are to provide hard-power to these LED options? If so, that's a major faux pas in terms of supplying mains to a stage - just think about what happens if a minor fault on one lamp blows a fuse in one of these 4-ways... How do you get up to the grid mid-show to replace it and get the other three back on line? That is why we use 5/15/16A unfused plugs.

 

Fog machine for around £50...? Well, the lifespan of those units alone will be very short, from experience, plus they're unlikely to be of a theatre standard. In theatre we need fog WHEN we need it, not when the machine wants to be 'in the mood' to give it. That's OK for disco foggers (which I'd pretty much guarantee these are at that price) but NOT in theatre.

 

And your control desk... Even allowing for the LEDs to be paired, that still gives 8 sets of probably 6 channels each to control these. If the desk you are looking at has assignable DMX soft patching then you MAY be able to squeeze them into less control channels (if you only use, say, 4 ch for RGB and strobe) but again, a desk at that price may well not do that.

So how do you control the rest of the generic lighting? Or anything else you may hire in for shows...?

 

And on to the 500W PAR cans. Whilst delivering the most punch per pound, these still MAY not be enough to give you any decent cover from the front, depending on how you split them. Three MAY give a fair wash in open white, and the other 4 MAY do a fair job with colour, but you won't get much joy with them.

 

So, whilst on paper, this may well look impressive to your teachers, and it will be an improvement on what you have at the moment, you're not going to get anywhere near the coverage that you or they might think from your plan.

 

With decent equipment that is going to last, your £1500 is going to disappear FAST.

So I'll echo the recommendation that you get a proper supplier (or three) in to give separate quotes on how to kit the place properly, and then let the school look at what budget they can come up with to cover that.

But before they do come in to quote, have a specific statement of what you want to achieve in terms of performance coverage - leave THEM to recommend actual fixture types to a point.

[ramdram]

JAAMM, you appear to have invested an inordinate amount of time and energy in this project.

 

The other posts have indicated that whilst it looks all very well on paper it's not really going to work as you hope and the prices appear to be for bargain basement stuff.

 

Somehow I get the impression nobody in authority at your school has any real interest in doing any of this. If the HM did then you would be the last to be consulted and the bean counters would assume some degree of control by obtaining proper quotes from approved suppliers. Frankly, eBay is unlikely to be an approved supplier...what about warranties etc?

 

You must factor into this sort of thing issues such as repair and maintenance.

 

Replacement lamps are not cheap and you must expect/appreciate that some folk may run the lanterns up on full from cold and hence shorten the lamps' service life. Have you considered a separate budget for spares? Have you considered a cable tester for your DMX cables? What above replacement smoke fluid? Until the novelty wears off be prepared to see gallons of the stuff literally disappear in smoke (sorry could not resist).

 

The budget you mention may well be exceeded if a case is made for the kit...if it is really wanted. By that I mean have you been commissioned by the HM or did the Drama teacher, say, as an offhand comment, and possibly tongue in cheek, suggest you put a package together and then it will be submitted to the HM.

 

You might as well learn now that teachers have been known to give projects to pupils in order to keep them occupied. This may sound a bit brutal but be prepared for nothing at all to happen as a result.

 

However, you have learned some very valuable lessons in that you have done the research thing, done the graphics depiction of the project and most importantly approached the BR and asked for comments from professionals for "peer review" on the choice of kit and deployment.

 

The above posts are not intended to rain on your parade by any means. Think of them as a sort of steering committee.

[springgrove]

http://tomlinson-net.org/james/school-lights/plan/new/1.jpg

http://tomlinson-net.org/james/school-lights/plan/new/2.JPG

 

I know that plenty of people have responded, but I would like to know what they are talking about!!

 

Am I the only person who can't see any images? Just says 'Posted Image'. And, when I look at the actual links, the images don't exist on tomlinson-net.org.