paulears Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I found the plans a bit hard work, to be honest because they don't show directions, so we have no idea how they're focused? Scale helps too - so we can see how the beams spread and if the coverage looks 'right'. As we don't really know the purpose, it's difficult to comment on, really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OllieH Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Are the par cans actually pink/blue/red or do you expect to colour them pink/blue/red? And.. are your drawings to scale? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAAMM Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 Sorry about the drawings, I'll do some to scale with angles and such.... My initial plan involving the 12 channel, which involved another ELV DMX controller wired to it to regulate the 0-10V has failed, due to the board needing a switched negative as well as a positive to change the voltage, and not just as live and switched live (like a dimmer switch in your house would have). A new idea has entered my head, if I get 2 X 8 pin din connectors, then picked say 4 channels which I want to control, and put their pins (or wires I will solder on) across 4 solid state relays, which would be controled by the other DMX dimmer board which runs on 12V. This would be in between the dimmer and the Zerro 88 controller (I would leave those channels faders on 100 % intensity). I know this is not ideal as I would only be able have each channel either ON or OFF, but it would be OK for faster songs (tends to be most of them TBH) to chase them, then use the other cans over the stage and on the front of the stage on the dimmer pack to slowly chase (the others can be either off or just like one channel on. I know is very bodged, but I feel its better than running cables up to the lights (only have one dimmer pack anyway) and as long as it was programed carefully may work? + the wiring would all be only at the most 12V as well. Also, nothing is being 'altered' as well so can be put back to how it is now easily after the show. Thanks :) PS - I mean coloured gels on the cans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musht Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 On drawings have read at : http://www.onstagelighting.co.uk/lighting-design/stage-lighting-plan/ Bit difficult to get a grip of what your asking about switching. Sounds like you have enough dimmers to patch all your 56`s even as pairs. LED Cans and Mojo Scans just need hard power and DMX. This is where a clear drawing helps to work out things as well as show others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAAMM Posted July 15, 2011 Author Share Posted July 15, 2011 On drawings have read at : http://www.onstageli...-lighting-plan/ Bit difficult to get a grip of what your asking about switching. Sounds like you have enough dimmers to patch all your 56`s even as pairs. LED Cans and Mojo Scans just need hard power and DMX. This is where a clear drawing helps to work out things as well as show others. Thanks for that, it's given me an idea for Google sketchup. So, the hall from the rear(note lighting box):http://tomlinson-net.org/james/school-lights/plan/1.JPG http://tomlinson-net.org/james/school-lights/plan/5.JPGThe front of the stage:http://tomlinson-net.org/james/school-lights/plan/2.JPG In the 'fly tower':http://tomlinson-net.org/james/school-lights/plan/3.JPG http://tomlinson-net.org/james/school-lights/plan/4.JPG The lights over the hall, aiming at the stage (please note they are the fresnels but there were non on sketchup so I used par 56's & I've only put in the lights I wish to use, there are a few more on 2 more bars further back): http://tomlinson-net.org/james/school-lights/plan/6.JPG http://tomlinson-net.org/james/school-lights/plan/7.JPG http://tomlinson-net.org/james/school-lights/plan/8.JPG Hope you like these better, I've guessed the scale, but it can't be too far off. What do you think? :) Do you think the 8 X 500w fresnels will be enough to light the front of stage? I will do a test when I can get into the hall . Thank You :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashley R Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 What is the purpose of the 4 LED cans? As im doubting that they will have enough punch to cut through that wash an do any colour. And I doubt they will be a wash, more like 4 spots as LED's usually have a fairly narrow beam angle. 8x 500w Fresnels should be plenty for a FOH OW wash on such a small stage. But then again I'm used to working with Selecon Acclaims and CCT Minuette, not Furse something something which probably has a significantly lower output. And im sure you have remembered a Hazer, otherwise your 4 scanners down the back ain't going to doing much. (If they are just there for a bit of flashy flashy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAAMM Posted July 15, 2011 Author Share Posted July 15, 2011 What is the purpose of the 4 LED cans? As im doubting that they will have enough punch to cut through that wash an do any colour. And I doubt they will be a wash, more like 4 spots as LED's usually have a fairly narrow beam angle. 8x 500w Fresnels should be plenty for a FOH OW wash on such a small stage. But then again I'm used to working with Selecon Acclaims and CCT Minuette, not Furse something something which probably has a significantly lower output. And im sure you have remembered a Hazer, otherwise your 4 scanners down the back ain't going to doing much. (If they are just there for a bit of flashy flashy) I thought that actually, but I have them and want to use them, thought they may be good to use for slower songs (wont really know though until I get a song list though), maybe as an intro on their own, I agree they wont be seen very well through the 7KW of incandescent light! & yep, smoke machine are a must as as you say, the audience wont know they're there if not :0 Need to test that actually as we've had a new fire alarm installed and their are 2 senses over the stage! Do you think that would cause an issue? I did a test at home & it didn't go off unless blasted by the machine about a foot away! Also, what colour gels do you think would be best for the fresnels? I'd like to 3 to wash really. Thanks :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior8 Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I think those terrible old Fresnels will have real trouble competing with the rest of the gear from FOH! I think you are getting just a tad ahead of yourself here mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 If you want to illuminate, then pick pastels - but I'm still unsure what the actual event is? Is it a showcase where the stage will have lots of people on it, or is it something else? If you want to wash the entire stage width with light from your fresnels out front, then some pinks and some blues - but save the other colour for something critical - so is there a need for a particular colour? Withe the scans and pars you're going to have some nice 'puddles' on the floor - but they're pretty hopeless for much else. The scans have very narrow beams, so if you do have a smoke machine, I'd hang them from the upstage bar so they create nice shapes in the air, or even on the stage floor, going up. You spent so much time on the 3D pics - which are nice - but honestly, all we needed was a scale plan with proper symbols. However, we do no know what you mean. The fresnels over the audience will let the audience see the people and the other kit can flash and wiggle. It will be fine. What concerns me more is having enough dimmer channels? Your installation appears hard wired with no patch - which is actually unusual for schools - so with dodgy controls means pairing and symmetry is going to be difficult - if the fader is broken for the socket that you need to use, then you have to use cable to move a working socket to where the light is? Once this event is over, I'd suggest to the teachers that the installation may not be safe. They'll have to get it checked, find it faulty (probably) and suggest the school spend money? It may work. I'm off to a school today who can't use their own system for similar reasons, so a pile of hire kit is arriving, and they have no staff or students who can put it in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerry davies Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 The enthusiasm is refreshing to an old cynic like myself but please slow down a bit. The school may well let you hang personal kit but before they do so you should insist that they check insurance policies or LEA policy. If it is not covered by their insurance the onus will fall on you. I know, I know, it isn't going to fall and kill a first year and you are capable enough that it will not set the place on fire BUT!!! The very mention of the possibility of asbestos gets most professionals running away smartly and your mention of extensive building work begs the question of what is taking place in the venue itself. Yet again I apologise to a young person about being a wet blanket but you come across as someone who would be a beneficial addition to the game. I don't want you to be put off by frustration at this early stage and would reiterate Junior8's caution to slow down a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior8 Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I know it's boring but you really must do the checks I suggested earlier. By your own admission neither you or your teacher know just what is going on behind the prosc so there is no point making a plan to hang loads of gear there - which you may not even be able to plug in let alone control. Your pix of the batten show them to be hard wired - in typical Furse fashion with the tripe going off to a terminal box on the wall by the looks of it. I can see no IWBs anywhere there and if you think any school is going to allow you to make up and rig your own temporary leads I suspect you may be in for a shock. I'm not even sure these days they'll even allow you anywhere near a ladder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossmck Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 If you think any school is going to allow you to make up and rig your own temporary leads I suspect you may be in for a shock. I'm not even sure these days they'll even allow you anywhere near a ladder... Not all schools are the same - I can think of a few that still have no issues with pupils using ladders or tallescopes or other access equipment as long as it's used properly and under supervision. The same places would have no issues with pupils running TRS along existing bars to provide power to movers etc although making up their own cables would maybe not go down so well... that said in at least one I can think of there's a load of extension cables that were 'brought in' by a pupil, they had also been made up by same said pupil but no questions were asked and they all looked nice and professional (and passed the visual inspection by the school's own staff) In every case it depends what your school will / won't let you do... The general answer these days sadly seems to be a lot less than they did when I was at school (which wasn't *THAT* long ago) but we never did anyone any harm using our own cables (all of which would pass a PAT test) nor did anyone ever fall off a ladder ... Oh just as an aside and when Ashley said "hazer" they meant hazer ... not smoke machine, it really won't have the same effect and it's very much more likely to cause issues with the fire alarm.. In any event make sure the venue (this applies anywhere, not just your school!) is happy with the effect you want to use and isolates the detectors that may be affected where possible. Otherwise consider hiring and using an oil-based cracker which don't tend to set them off, or keep the haze level low (I'm yet to set a fire alarm off with a light haze) As others have said your enthusiasm (and sensible attitude) is admirable and I hope this show goes well for you and wish you all the best for any future ones :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramdram Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 JAAMM, your evident enthusiasm is laudable, but... Do your teachers, tutors, tech blokes or HM know what you are about asking questions on the BR? The problem for BR so to speak is giving advice to minors who cannot possibly be qualified to do anything electrically and without wishing to be unkind in the slightest may not have done his "homework" with the school tech folk. IF you had no idea about kit bolted to the walls your first port of call could have been the house maintenance engineer or caretaker and asked him or her. Bear in mind of course they are not obliged to help you at all. The general view about education is you go to a school and you learn stuff as presented by the teaching staff. You may have noticed that what you are being taught runs, more or less, ** laughs out loud **, in line with what you are examined on. Burrowing around in places, which are probably out of bounds for pupils anyway, is not the best approach. It may be your drama teacher/teacher with responsibility is just not that concerned and wants a quiet life so simply lets you run about unsupervised. Ref using personal kit as alluded to above, your house maints folk would be putting their head in a noose unless it had a PAT cert, and it may be the school has a policy of allowing this sort of activity...of which you will, of course, be acquainted... In short JAAMM it sounds as if you are the prime mover in all this and the advice to slow down should be taken very seriously. I suggest you discuss it in detail with whomever is responsible for that department and lay down exactly want you are hoping to achieve. In turn they will lay down exactly what you can or cannot do. It may be something more structured is offered. You must however be prepared for a total lack of interest in anything outside the curriculum. In which case you might stroll along to your local amdram and ask to be a volunteer...and do whatever they want you to do. Do not, rpt do not, expect to join on Monday and be running the show on Friday night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashley R Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Oh just as an aside and when Ashley said "hazer" they meant hazer ... not smoke machine, it really won't have the same effect and it's very much more likely to cause issues with the fire alarm.. In any event make sure the venue (this applies anywhere, not just your school!) is happy with the effect you want to use and isolates the detectors that may be affected where possible. Otherwise consider hiring and using an oil-based cracker which don't tend to set them off, or keep the haze level low (I'm yet to set a fire alarm off with a light haze) first thing +1 for your effort and enthusiasm thus far! It will get you a long way in this industry just showing a willingness to learn etc. When I said Haze, I was really thinking a proper Hazer, not a smoke machine. As Rossmck has pointed out proper Oil cracker hazers are far less likely to set smoke alarms off. e.g. Martin Magnum 650 smoke machine, a quick puff of that at home and the extremely cheap smoke alarm went off quite quickly, On the other hand 2x Antari HZ-100, and 1x HZ400 hazers going in the same room for testing and the smoke alarm doesnt even make a chirp. If all you have access to is a smoke machine, then stick it on the floor pointing at a bit of timber/ metal on a 45deg angle so the smoke goes up in the air, then position a decent sized fan behind it all. Done this a few times with my Magnums before I had a hazer and worked a treat. Even though its tempting to stick every single piece of gear up there (Trust me it is! Just packing gear an hour ago and its bloody tempting to add a few extra things just for the sake of it ;) ) it may come back to bite you, e.g. you waste to much time programming them, something goes wrong and you spend an enormous amount of time fault finding the problem (Usually comes back to 1 dodgy join in 1 connector ) etc. etc. I concur with Paulears that the scanners should be placed as far back as possible, as they will be only for eye candy really. I mean I've used tiny MX-4's and ADJ X Scan LED's (20W LED) in a massive concert hall with a massive FOH wash, they only worked because we had plenty of haze, and they were stuck onstage on sticks of vertical truss, with most of the movements etc. pointing straight at the audience. But we come to the biggest consideration, what your school will and will not allow you/ cover for, others have explained this in fairly sufficient detail so I wont go there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musht Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 looks like you are coming across one of the usual problems, kit installed years ago to the spec of someone who has since left.... That`s one thing to avoid doing to future users, leaving a pile of undocumented changes to stuff that no one but yourself can understand. Sound equipment, box fresh, but lighting gear something Shakespeare himself would have thought dated, not unusual :-( Sounds ominous that the building is currently undergoing construction work, could be that budgets have been allocated and purchase orders issued, may have missed the main chance for improving lighting this time around? But enthusiasm and learning a bit about how the politics of your particular establishment work should hopefully bring benefits. Disagree with Paul slightly, 3D drawing of the space is a great way to demonstrate to non technical people how things could look,a 2D plot is great if you know how to read it. Par16 did a while back is leading a life of its own now ;-)There is a fresnel in this collectionhttp://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=797eab90a425ec05ffe8440ffab89d5b If you want to render some static scenes with light; http://www.kerkythea.net Its aimed at architectural modellling but for making pretty pictures to impress fund holders it might have its uses :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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