Rescue statements for tallescopes

[Ynot]

>SNIP<

To answer my rescue problem I think I’ll have to contact someone like Lyon Equipment for a definitive solution.

>SNIP<

Yes, I suppose that you will, as no-one on here, apart from Paul has made any attempt to answer your original query.

Hmmm...

Actually, I believe that my response was in fact both accurate and constructive... ;)

I seem to recall that you said

>SNIP<

I am not interested in people moaning about the usage of the scope

>SNIP<

And again I must disagree on a point - I don't believe anyone has actually moaned or argued about the use of the scope at all.... What HAS been challenged is the use of the HARNESS on said scope, which is as I see it key to answering the actual OP question.

And the responses that say 'you shouldn't be attaching yourself to a portable staging system' I feel are quite justified...

Because you shouldn't!

[Simon Lewis]

Just to chuck a spanner/point of order in, the IPAF (not tallescopes, I know) recommends that where harness are worn they MUST be attached to the access equipment, and not an "external" structure, using the rated attachment points.

 

t'other way round... If you are using a boom type MEWP, then IPAF recommends a harness with a short lanyard. This is to stop the user from being bounced out of the basket in extreme circumstances. You have to clip onto one of the properly designed and labeled fixing points. It's the equipment and situation that dictates whether the harness is needed, not 'wear a harness to feel safer, so you must clip it to the nearest bit of metal...'

 

Since the Tallescope does not operate like a boom arm, and since it does not have any suitable attachment points, a harness is inappropriate PPE. Needless to say, if someone did fall off the ladder, the rung could just snap or pull out of the stile. If a fall arrest lanyard is used, the length of the Y lanyard and the deployed fall arrest section is likely to be as long as the ladder section anyway.

 

I'd be tempted to risk assess the suggested use of ppe... ;-)

 

Simon

[AndyJones]

Also Tallescope baskets are quite small things, if you are stood up and suddenly become unconscious I wouldn't have thought you would stay in the basket?

[Seano]

Paul, a suggestion:

Maybe we shouldn't name the venue in our posts, so far you're the only one who's done so. We all know which venue it is, because its in the OP's profile but as long as we don't include it in the thread he'll be able to change that at some point in the future if he wants, to make this thread a bit more anonymous.

 

Just to chuck a spanner/point of order in, the IPAF (not tallescopes, I know) recommends that where harness are worn they MUST be attached to the access equipment, and not an "external" structure, using the rated attachment points.

 

You appreciate the irony of putting "MUST" in block capitals where it follows the word "recommends" in a sentence right? The 'rated' attachment points in a MEWP are not rated for fall-arrest purposes. A system designed to protect someone from falling off a ladder most certainly would be a 'fall arrest' system. For these and other reasons, discussion of harnesses and lanyards with regards to MEWPs is probably misleading, its an interesting topic in its own right but it'd be better in a separate thread.

 

however I have a responsibility to adhere to his rulings or in his own words “face prosecution”. We are a council run venue and as I keep getting told “we must be seen to be exemplar”.

Hmm.. Coming up with a half baked policy like this and then insisting that you could be prosecuted for failing to follow it? It certainly is an example of something.

 

The mere act of clipping on to and off of rungs as you climb any type of tladder (in the way you describe) is in fact placing a far higher risk on the ascent/descent than simply climbing 'freehand'.

 

Quite simply, ladders are for climbing using TWO hands.

Exactly. Nail on the head.

 

To the OP: Since you also don't move the scope, how many times do you climb up and down the ladder during a typical focus?

 

YOU, do absolutely NOTHING.

Yo DO call the emergency services, and THEY will effect the rescue.

Why? Because you and your colleagues are not trained to carry out that sort of activity, and may do more harm than good if you attempt it!

Under the latest WaH regulations, this is no longer good enough. For work at height where a system of fall arrest is in place, there also needs to be a rescue plan, backed up with whatever equipment and training is necessary. In part this has come up because of a growing awareness of the need for a rescue to take place as soon as possible, also the skills involved are a bit specialised and not normally something the average fireman is trained in. It might actually take the emergency services quite a while to get personnel and equipment onto the scene for such a rescue.

 

But again, this is irrelevant to this thread in a way, since the "fall arrest" system in this case is so ineffective. In this case I think "Remove bits of broken tallescope and scrape casualty up off floor." would cover most eventualities.

 

To answer my rescue problem I think I’ll have to contact someone like Lyon Equipment for a definitive solution.

There is no single 'definitive solution', and even if there were a severely broken system of fall arrest is no starting point.

If your "Health and Safety" person really wants you to use a fall arrest system with the 'scope, he needs to come up with a system that works - and then come up with a rescue plan to suit that system.

 

I shall contact the manufacture Monday to discuss their stand point on this.

I'm sure we'll all be very interested to hear what they have to say.

 

Perhaps it would be a good time for me to start looking into alternatives to the scope and use this added H&S issue to fuel the fire in order to fund new kit! Any ideas on that??

It seems to me that the last thing you need is another person using 'Elf and Safety' as an excuse to push some agenda of his own. That fire already has plenty of fuel, and the only real "H&S issue" here is that you appear to have a complete muppet dictating to you how to use the 'scope. If you get some whizzy new bit of kit, who's to say he wont invent something equally stupid to apply to that?

 

Sean

x

[Tomo]

Just to quickly jump in here:

 

Health & Safety in the workplace is not purely the domain or responsibility of a single H&S Manager or management team.

 

It is everyone's responsibility.

 

If any employee sees an object or an operation they consider to be dangerous, they have a legal duty to raise their concerns with management.

 

Management have a legal duty to listen to any concerns that have been raised, and either prove to you that they have thought about it (eg by taking you through the risk assessment) and their method is good, or to change their method.

 

If the work instruction for climbing ANY ladder or ladder-based equipment requires you to clip to the rungs, it is WRONG and DANGEROUS, for a few reasons:

 

1) All ladders are designed to be climbed using two free hands.

2) Ladder rungs are designed to take the static weight of one person, heavier duty ladders can take one person plus heavy toolbelt.

(The exact rated weight varies with the designed use of the ladder.)

 

If you were to fall while clipped to a rung, you would either snap the rung or yank it out of the stile.

Thus, a harness provides ZERO protection in this case, while increasing the risk of an accident.

 

Therefore, you actually have a legal duty to raise this with management. If the H&S guy won't listen, jump over his head because this is important.

 

I'd go so far as to say that you should cease tallescope operations until you have a sensible method for usage - and this particular H&S man urgently needs training, as he does not understand the issues involved.

 

As to the rescue operations - I really don't know.

I've never seen a rescue statement for a tallescope.

Tallies were originally designed for use outdoors, eg changing lamps in streetlights, and in that situation rescue is impossible without a cherry picker.

[Ynot]

YOU, do absolutely NOTHING.

Yo DO call the emergency services, and THEY will effect the rescue.

Why? Because you and your colleagues are not trained to carry out that sort of activity, and may do more harm than good if you attempt it!

Under the latest WaH regulations, this is no longer good enough. For work at height where a system of fall arrest is in place, there also needs to be a rescue plan, backed up with whatever equipment and training is necessary. In part this has come up because of a growing awareness of the need for a rescue to take place as soon as possible, also the skills involved are a bit specialised and not normally something the average fireman is trained in. It might actually take the emergency services quite a while to get personnel and equipment onto the scene for such a rescue.

 

Now that's interesting, and something that surprises me, I have to say.

OK - I may be a little out of date on my WaH practices (and need to brush up!) but one of the credos I've always stood by - just as in general first aid - is that if you're not trained to administer the proper assistance, then you shouldn't attempt to do so as what you do MAY aggravate a situation/injury. I would still stand by that in many cases.

 

My reasoning there is that not everyone on a staff can or will be trained on every sort of situation, and realistically I can foresee that you won't always be able to have one that IS trained on site at ALL times. (That's easier to stipulate in a pro situation - eg no 'trained rescuer', no climbing - but VERY difficult in an amateur environment). So if the regs state you MUST attempt to effect a rescue as per a documented plan, it seems a recipe for error and misfortune.

 

The only platformed work item we use in our (am) venue is a 6 x 2 based scaff tower. There's not - as far as I'm aware - any stipulation that when used, the climbers have to wear any harness, and that would be pretty difficult to implement, considering at any one time there could be as many as ten different people during the day who might use it - some just once, others up & down all the time. If one of them collapsed at the top, I can't see how we might possibly effect a rescue without potentially placing him and the rescuers at further risk from their actions.

 

Still, it looks as though I will have to investigate the revised WaH regs in future to see if we need to get them rewritten on this basis.

Interesting....

[Andy Mel]

This sort of thing is exactly why I am presently supposed to be studying for my Nebosh certification so I can give qualified judgement for Safety advisors that are not familiar with circumstances.

 

Sounds like he has not produced a "suitable and sufficent" assessment (reg 3 Management of H&S at work regulations), on what has he based his judgement? He is clearly not competent in the task he is assessing, and thus getiing confused..(reg7 MHSAW regs). Sounds like as suggested you need to speak to your boss, advise him of the risk and severity of what is being advised and ask for the task to be re-assessed. Its your duty under law, H&S (consultation with employees) regs, reg3 employers duty to consult - the employer must consult employees in good time with regard to the H&S consequences to employees of the introduction of new techniques into the workplace.

 

Hope that helps, like I say I'm not yet certified to offer this advice, but as of my exams next week I hope to redress the balance, for a fee of course!!

 

Andy

[Seano]

one of the credos I've always stood by - just as in general first aid - is that if you're not trained to administer the proper assistance, then you shouldn't attempt to do so as what you do MAY aggravate a situation/injury. I would still stand by that in many cases.

Hold that thought...

 

The only platformed work item we use in our (am) venue is a 6 x 2 based scaff tower. There's not - as far as I'm aware - any stipulation that when used, the climbers have to wear any harness, and that would be pretty difficult to implement,

 

Here's why we're getting a bit confused I think. Like the OP's use of a tallescope, it wouldn't be practical for you to use a PPE based fall arrest system on your scaff tower, this isn't the sort of situation I'm talking about.

 

Remember that there's a hierarchy of measures in fall protection, and a PFPS (personal fall protection system) is pretty much the last resort. Preventing a fall in the first place is higher up the list, which is what you're doing when you use a talle or scaff tower in accordance with the manufacturers instructions (with regard to outriggers, handrails, toeboards, etc. - and of course climbing the ladder efficiently with both hands free and not stopping every other rung to hang off one hand whilst fannying about with lanyards and hooks <ahem>).

 

I don't think any sensible person would interpret the regulations* to be saying you need to be capable of getting an unconscious person down from the top of a scaff tower. It'd certainly be good for your risk assessment etc., to cover some basic sensible precautions to prevent that situation from arising though. You wouldn't want someone with chest pains or low blood pressure going up there for example, and you'd want to be as certain as you can be that they're not going to get an electric shock - basic stuff.

 

* - Incidentally, by 'regulations', I mean the Work at Height regs that came into force in 2005 (and were amended a bit in 2007, but those amendments didn't change anything for us). There's a really good line by line explanation of them here.

 

What I'm talking about is the need for a rescue plan where you put a PPE based fall arrest system in place. When you do that you're creating a situation where its possible for someone to fall and end up dangling in a harness. Dangling in a harness, especially if injured, can be pretty dangerous in its own right, and quickly. Hence the requirement, if you're creating a situation where someone could end up dangling, to also put in place a system to get them down (or up) ASAP.

 

It really isn't hard to do, but it does require the kind of knowledge and experience that SlackerWill's "H&S" man clearly lacks. If you're smart you dont just randomly put a fall arrest system in place, stick to it with unshakable dogma and then try to bolt a rescue plan on afterwards. Its much better to bear rescue in mind from the beginning.

 

To come back to the talle in the OP - if you determined that a fall arrest system was necessary to protect the climb up the ladder and into the basket of a 'scope, you might come up with something involving a belay from the grid. Using a human belayer or a fall-arrest block from above would reduce the potential fall-factor to offer some protection for the bottom few meters of the ladder (where a shock-absorbing lanyard is entirely useless even with an adequate anchor), and rescue could be as simple as the belayer immediately lowering the casualty to the floor. Of course you'd have to move the fall arrest system every time you move the 'scope, and such a system would be laborious, unnecessary and stupid - but it would still be better than what the OP describes.

 

To the OP: The reason the system you are being expected to use is counterproductive is this: it probably wouldn't work, but creates the illusion that there is some fall protection in place. Climbing the ladder is made very laborious (greatly increasing the risk of falling) without offering real protection. Once in the basket, again there is the illusion of protection - coupled with the prohibition on moving an occupied scope and the laborious nature of the climb down and up again this acts to create a powerful temptation to stretch over just a little bit more to reach that last lantern. Again, increasing the risk of a fall.

 

Have you read Tomo's post (above) yet? Maybe you should go back and read it again. He's absolutely right, if this "H&S" person cant be educated he needs to be bypassed. If he's in a position to make life difficult for you personally, it would probably be a good idea to discuss the situation with the union first.

 

Sean

x

[David A]

simple answer, you need to buy a scissor lift to access the tallescope, no problem.

[Seano]

Tallies were originally designed for use outdoors, eg changing lamps in streetlights, and in that situation rescue is impossible without a cherry picker.

 

You're right of course but c'mon Tomo, nothing is impossible! I reckon I could do it with a big pile of cardboard boxes and a set of tree loppers. ;) (If you don't have enough cardboard boxes available, maybe a dozen or so keystone cops and a blanket?)

[SlackerWill]

Good call Seano!! I have removed my venues details. I would be thankful if the moderator would remove my venues details from the post ta.

 

Well after getting 5 hours sleep in-between Get out and Fit up I have decided to make a judgement call and not use PPE for the task of focusing until this concern is clarified. It was definitely painful enough climbing up and down the scope this morning without it!

 

I still intent to contact the manufacture about this tomorrow and if indeed their view is the same as many of your good selfs I shall put this to Mr H&S. I shall keep you posted.

 

I presume that if the use of ppe is deemed to be unsuitable for use on a scope, the need for a rescue statement itself would be un-necessary?

 

Seano a typical focus would consist of about 80 lamps over head.

 

 

Will

[paulears]

Venue suggestion is sensible - and I've sorted that.

 

As I understand the rescue statement, it would actually be quite ok to simply state that rescue from the basket is only safe if carried out from a suitable additional work platform. The reality, is that if somebody does become unconscious in the basket, the chances of being able to rescue them from the scope ladder are impossible. They'd almost certainly require lifting up and out, getting to, and attempting to manhandle and twist their limbs with dead weight on them, to get through the proper access space would be next to impossible.

 

 

I was thinking about what we would actually do if this really happened, and rescue had to take place. The only thing I can think of, in the absence of proper rescue kit - as in a scissor lift or similar, would be to harness yourself to a suitable empty bar, and get the flyman to take you up. Even then, although you could probably then lift the person so that somebody on the scope ladder could guide them out, it would really need them to be wearing a harness to get the down safely. With this in mind, maybe the rescue statement should just dictate that calling the emergency services is the only safe solution. My bodged up scenario above could wel be seen as more dangerous. Somebody harnessed to a flying set, somebody overloading the scope, etc etc.

 

This is quiet interesting. What we seem to be talking up, is that if you need to be able to rescue somebody from an aerial access piece of kit, then you actually need 2!

 

Does anybody else think that having a rescue statement that says effectively that rescue should only be carried out by the official emergency services, is sufficient?

[the kid]

See at work we don't have a flying grid we do have a balcony which you could (at a push) retrieve someone from scope hight. But unless the scope is next to it, we would have to move it to get them there.

 

I honestly don't know what else I could do.

[gareth]

You're right of course but c'mon Tomo, nothing is impossible! I reckon I could do it with a big pile of cardboard boxes and a set of tree loppers. :( (If you don't have enough cardboard boxes available, maybe a dozen or so keystone cops and a blanket?)

{Sings} : "Jump, you ****er, jump ... jump into this blanket what we are 'olding, and you will be alright ... he jumped, hit the deck, broke his ***in' neck, there waa-aa-as no blanket."

 

;)

 

Sorry, completely OT - but I couldn't resist it!

[Jivemaster]

Following a previous discussion on rescue from height, I actually spoke officially to the London Fire Service. Their training to rescue is limited to where they can take the fire appliance! Or a ladder from it. Or worse, their road traveling blue strobed cherry picker. SO unless you have a mountain rescue service in your area you are on your own!