Rescue statements for tallescopes

[Simon Lewis]

Only if the structure you're clipping on to is rated for this purpose.

 

And were the Tallescope to fall over, leaving you suspended from the structure, you would need a rescue plan! However, how likely is it that the talle will tip under normal circuimstances?

[Andrew C]

[tounge in cheek]

 

If the only problem the H&S droid can see is the lack of a rescue plan for a casualty in the basket, why not simply remove the basket? The casualty will then be conveniently at floor level, and thus easy to treat.

 

[/tounge in cheek]

[Seano]

We're still getting sidetracked by this scope malarky.

That is because this topic is about rescue from a Scope....

Well yes, but its also about rescue plans. My point is that when I'm talking about rescue plans I'm not talking about rescue plans from a tallescope (because thats fairly silly) but more generally.

 

People randomly lose consciousness, just it's quite rare.

10 pedant points for you, I stand corrected. Some people do randomly lose consciousness, and as you say those people shouldn't be working up scopes (or driving buses).

 

Again, I don't know wehere this has happened, but I'm guessing in a school or similar venue where the H&S persons are not familiar with the equipment we use.

You'd think so wouldn't you, but no - its a medium-sized professional theatre. Its a bit of a worry.

 

Sean

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[andy_s]

Not going to happen.

 

Sean

x

 

I would tend to agree - hence the (unquoted) disclaimer at the end of my post....

 

but the OP did say he was in touch with the manufacturer, so I thought - what a great opportunity to hear it from the horse's mouth so to speak....

[mikienorth]

its a medium-sized professional theatre. Its a bit of a worry.

 

And can be found out which without too much effort, mods, his venue is still named on here, albeit in a different topic....

 

But council run. Which causes lots of problems.

 

Best of luck, hopefully your H&S management are different to the enforcement in the area. Things are seen very differently by some people, best thing is to find or obtain written evidence that they are suggesting bad practice, which, at the outset of this, they were.

 

I'm really feeling for you, as soon as I can I'll try and get my information out, but a reformed HDD is in the way right now.

[Ike]

While I'm not saying you need a WaH rescue plan for 'scopes I don't think it hurts to think about it. In a lot of venues it could be fairly straight forward although getting an unconscious person out of the basket (if they hadn't already fallen) would be a pain in the arse.

 

The need to be rescued from a scope could occur from a whole host of injuries, a badly damaged hand for example would make egress difficult to say the least. While these risks should be very very unlikely the cost of a bit of rope, rescue harness, descender and odds and sods ain't too much and I'd expect a lot of venues would already have enough kit to bodge together a usable system.

 

And yes I am aware that you should never bodge together a rope access/egress system. Just thought I'd get that in before an 'elf and safety bod (who likely never works from a 'scope) can. :D

[Seano]

While I'm not saying you need a WaH rescue plan for 'scopes I don't think it hurts to think about it. In a lot of venues it could be fairly straight forward although getting an unconscious person out of the basket (if they hadn't already fallen) would be a pain in the arse.

 

I agree, it doesn't hurt to think about this stuff.

I think the toughest part of dealing with the worst-case scenario of an unconscious person in a scope basket would be gaining access to them and getting them into a rescue nappy. I think moving the (occupied) scope might be the way forward in many cases.

I'm not sure how awkward it would be to hoist someone clear of the basket, possibly not that tough given enough headroom.

 

It might be worth bearing in mind that there's also the option of leaving them in and lowering cas and basket together - in that case I think I'd be inclined to put a prusik on the lowering rope and use it to take a strain on the basket handrail. You'd then need someone to wheel the base of the scope back to allow the cas and the basket to drop in a more or less straight line.

 

If you wanted to make a proper rescue plan out of this it'd definitely have to be practiced from time to time. There'd be some fun and games to be had getting that organised. :D

 

Sean

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[GRisdale]

I appreciate that this post has officially become a "How can Will create a rescue plan for his Tallescope" thread, and that it's trying not to become "yet another Tallescope" thread, however...

 

Trying to come up with a rescue plan for a Tallescope seems to me to be a wasted exercise, given that - as many have pointed out in this and other discussions - you are now more likely than ever to fall and hurt yourself while climbing that vertical ladder for the fortieth time in a shift, and you will never find a sensible way to tackle this risk so long as the manufacturer isn't willing to turn up to the discussion.

 

Trying to deal with (what I would consider to be) the ‘secondary’ risk of someone passing out in the bucket (which is fully guarded by the way so that, if you're using it properly, you can't fall out of it) is, as far as I'm concerned, a distraction from the real issue of safety. By the way - if it's a legal requirement that you have to have a rescue plan in place for a work platform (which is what a Tallescope is) then the design of virtually every tower I've ever seen falls to pieces, as do training courses for such equipment...

 

Can you devise a safe system of rescue from an injured or unconscious casualty in a Tallescope bucket? We can put man on the moon and bring him back again (allegedly :D ) and the space shuttle lands on autopilot, so yes - sending someone to the top of a scope and bringing them back whilst bleeding and unconcious falls within the realms of possibility. But I would suggest that any theatre able financially to provide the installation, equipment, staff and training that this would require can probably afford what is (probably) a cheaper and more efficient option of powered access equipment, which takes away all the tricky safety issues and makes you work much faster too.

 

That however does not provide much help to those who can't afford either of those two options. Lanterns still need focussing and rigging, so how do they find a safe system of work on their Tallescope?

 

The simple fact is: You don't need to and you shouldn't try.

 

Perhaps it would be a good time for me to start looking into alternatives to the scope and use this added H&S issue to fuel the fire in order to fund new kit! Any ideas on that??

 

Since the clamp down on moving occupied scopes has taken hold the Tallescope has, in my opinion, ceased to be the most suitable equipment for the task of rigging and focussing theatres, and employers have a duty to provide “the most suitable work equipment.” The ESCA for example costs less than a talle, can be moved around safely whilst occupied, doesn’t have a vertical ladder and is light enough to be used on even the most fragile of floors. We’ve just bought one for access in our Studio Theatre as the floor won’t take an MEWP like the main theatre, and it feels much like working on a scope in the ‘good old days’. You’re even moving yourself around, so no need for those 1 – 4 people stood at the bottom asking if you’re “ready to move?” all night when there’s other work to be done.

 

I’d suggest that the OP, and other scope users under fire for H&S folk, start looking at the alternatives. The fact that the Tallescope has been serving theatres for decades and is enshrined in our history is not a good reason to risk your neck climbing a marathon every night, and once you realise that, you’ll start to realise that this is one issue where H&S can (for a change) lead to a lightening of your work load.

 

I am not interested in people moaning about the usage of the scope (we all know how it should be used)

 

May have infringed slightly - sorry.

 

I’m just interested in a practical solution to this problem.

 

Book a free ESCA demo at your venue and invite your H&S bloke.

 

 

Gareth (The other one)

 

...and no, I don't have shares in ESCA!

[Tomo]

Since the clamp down on moving occupied scopes has taken hold the Tallescope has, in my opinion, ceased to be the most suitable equipment for the task of rigging and focussing theatres, and employers have a duty to provide “the most suitable work equipment.” The ESCA for example costs less than a talle, can be moved around safely whilst occupied, doesn’t have a vertical ladder and is light enough to be used on even the most fragile of floors.

However, the ESCA can't be used on a raked stage, and isn't very height adjustable.

I'm not sure if you can adjust it at all!

 

Unfortunately, at the present moment the only options for raked stages seem to be Tallescopes with adjustable bases or very large extending A-frame ladders.

Given those two choices, I'll pick a tallie every time.

 

The third way is to eliminate on-stage work-at-height - which generally isn't feasible.

[stillgoingstrong]

Just a quick thought re: harnesses...

We've pretty much agreed that they're no good for going up and down, but nearly every 'realistic' suggestion (belay from above grid, 2nd platform transfer) would ideally require the casualty to be in a harness. No doubt any rescue by the fire brigade (don't do anything, call the FB idea) would also be helped if the casualty was already wearing a full restraint harness.

 

If the H&S guy is already asking everyone to wear a harness to go up and down, either everyone already has access to one, or he is willing to buy some. I would be tempted to argue the point of using it whilst climbing the ladder, but encourage the user to be wearing one, just in case, e.g. electric shock, injury to hand as previously suggested etc.

 

One final thought to throw in...

Surely there is a safety factor built into the tallescope, along with the maximum working weight limit. If you had a working limit of say 150Kg and the average person on site was 75kg, or even slightly more, in an emergency only, wouldn't it be possible for a 2nd person to climb up and belay the casualty down in some sort of controlled manner?

[dosxuk]

...in an emergency only, wouldn't it be possible for a 2nd person to climb up and belay the casualty down in some sort of controlled manner?

 

Two technicians, in a tallescope basket, one of which is in severe pain / unconcious, resulting in them being unable to co-operate, is going to be very cosy.

 

 

I'm still waiting to hear from anyone who's even heard of a rescue having to be attempted. By the range of ideas (bewilderment) of how to achieve this, I'm starting to think we're into meterorite / winning the lottery type possibilities. But it's been brought up, and it is a risk, so thinking needs to happen. I think this is something which actually the HSE could be useful for actually researching the best possibilities to effect this type of rescue.

[Ike]

I'm still waiting to hear from anyone who's even heard of a rescue having to be attempted.

Not from a scope however I've heard tales of it taking place from scaffolds, towers and other confined spaces. Come to think of it one of the tower training courses I went on did explain how to evac a stretchered casualty. That said there are many many many times more scaffold users than scope users.

 

I'm starting to think we're into meterorite / winning the lottery type possibilities.

I'd agree.

 

I think this is something which actually the HSE could be useful for actually researching the best possibilities to effect this type of rescue.

I really don't. It isn't something where a one size fits all approach would be any use and as far as I'm concerned the best people to come up with a solution would be those who use scopes day in day out. As the risks are so small nobody knows how an accident is going to manifest itself and so there's undoubtedly going to have to be a large amount of improvisation and adaption of any preconceived 'plan'. The last think we need is another report by the HSE (at great expense I might add) with more holes than a block of Emmental yet that somehow finds its way into 'law'.

 

If we accept the need for a plan (as apposed to discussing it informally) it won't be long before the elf and safety jobsworths assume this is going to happen and insist on having a plan even they couldn't f**k up!

[Seano]

No doubt any rescue by the fire brigade (don't do anything, call the FB idea) would also be helped if the casualty was already wearing a full restraint harness.

Maybe, but its not essential.

 

a) See the comments above regarding fire brigades and rope rescue - apart from a very few specialists its really not their bag.

 

b) 'Rescue triangle' harnesses are designed to be pretty easy to put onto a casualty, its easier if a casualty is already wearing a harness but not essential. In the case of a casualty who can assist at all (eg. someone with an injured hand) its a piece of cake* to get them into a rescue triangle. (To the extent that anything in roped rescue is easy - it all requires training and regular practice.)

 

c) We've pretty much established that the probability of someone requiring rescue from a scope is very remote. Mild discomfort every day with nasty chafing on a semi-regular basis strikes me as too high a price for the vague possibility that it'll be useful maybe once in a working life.

If you want to wear one thats cool, but please don't encourage the elf&safety authoritarians to try to make the rest of us do it too - its about as necessary as goggles and gauntlets to play conkers.

 

wouldn't it be possible for a 2nd person to climb up and belay the casualty down in some sort of controlled manner?

 

In my opinion, no - bad idea. Apart from the intrinsic difficulties and the very real danger of toppling the scope, it would be the kind of rescue procedure that requires a good deal of practice and it'd would be way too complicated to come up with an acceptable way to do that.

 

I really don't. It isn't something where a one size fits all approach would be any use and as far as I'm concerned the best people to come up with a solution would be those who use scopes day in day out.

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

Sean

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[SlackerWill]

Well I have contested the use of ppe on our scope with our H&S chap and it appears that he has seen the light. Now we shall not be expected to use ppe on the scope, thank god etc. He has just asked me to provide him with a copy of the tallescope manual for reference and just for good measure I intend to give him a copy of the draft guidelines for scope usage(on a stage), this has thankfully made my need for a rescue statement redundant. My only problem now is how to explain to the Russian why he has to come down after ever couple of lamps. Very dull indeed.

 

 

 

 

 

Will

[Ricky]

I think the h&s official that told you to use a harness needs to be put up the tallescope and thrown off the top to see what happens when the tallescope fails to support the shock of the weight falling.