Rescue statements for tallescopes

[Ynot]

Does anybody else think that having a rescue statement that says effectively that rescue should only be carried out by the official emergency services, is sufficient?

 

Me, obviously, as per my original post here, but Seano's reply set me thinking.

But I would still stand by my statements that it's very likely too dangerous for non-skilled (and don't forget 'trained' isn't always 'skilled') personnel to attempt to effect any rescue/give first aid...

 

It's definitely possible to do more harm than good in this situation, even putting more people at risk than just the original casualty.........

 

Interesting thread, though.

[ianl]

But I would still stand by my statements that it's very likely too dangerous for non-skilled (and don't forget 'trained' isn't always 'skilled') personnel to attempt to effect any rescue/give first aid...

 

 

Whilst I totaly agree with this statement.........

I think the Judges next question would be, " so, Mr Ynot, why did you think it unnecesary to arange for a skilled person to be present before sending this young person into such a dangerous situation?"

[Ynot]

But I would still stand by my statements that it's very likely too dangerous for non-skilled (and don't forget 'trained' isn't always 'skilled') personnel to attempt to effect any rescue/give first aid...

 

 

Whilst I totaly agree with this statement.........

I think the Judges next question would be, " so, Mr Ynot, why did you think it unnecesary to arange for a skilled person to be present before sending this young person into such a dangerous situation?"

Answer:

The person climbing the tallescope had been given all necessary instruction on how to climb and work safely, m'lud. And the situation under normal working practices is NOT dangerous when those standard safety guidelines are followed.

 

The situation under discussion is how to rescue someone from the top of this working platform, and I would argue the case that it's necessary to have someone skilled in high-level rescue skills at every hang & focus plot, especially when the local experts are less than five minutes down the road in their big shiny red engines.....

 

;)

[dosxuk]

Does anyone have any figures for number of people who have needed resucing from the basket? Has anyone here ever had to effect a rescue, or known someone who has? This may be why everyone is scratching thier heads, as it's something thats [virtually] never happened.

 

I don't feel there is anything wrong with relying on the emergency services for an extremely rare possiblility. If it was something which was regularly (in the H&S incident way) happening that would be a different matter.

[Ynot]

Does anyone have any figures for number of people who have needed resucing from the basket? Has anyone here ever had to effect a rescue, or known someone who has? This may be why everyone is scratching thier heads, as it's something thats [virtually] never happened.

 

I don't feel there is anything wrong with relying on the emergency services for an extremely rare possiblility. If it was something which was regularly (in the H&S incident way) happening that would be a different matter.

Precisely!!

[kerry davies]

With regard to the OP

When H&S is jeopardised, even by the use of PPE or other safety equipment, it is the duty of the user to stop work and report the situation.

Fall arrest and rope access equipment should only be used when the user has received adequate training and rescue from suspension should be restricted to those having received specialist training.

So the H&S person stipulating the use of fall arrest should be able to demonstrate their expertise in this area and write the statement themselves. After all, they will be the ones doing the climbing AND the rescuing if no-one else has the necessary specialism!

I don't know enough about advanced work at height using rope access/fall arrest equipment which is, as has already been stated, the last resort but I do know that attaching fall arrest gear/harnesses to a tallescope is far more dangerous than "normal" usage.

The best course of action would appear to be to escalate to the management asking for several weeks off for several of you to get the required specialist training, including the H&S person. That would fix it!

[AndrewR]

This is quiet interesting. What we seem to be talking up, is that if you need to be able to rescue somebody from an aerial access piece of kit, then you actually need 2!

 

As far as I'm aware all powered access equipment has controls at both ground and platform levels. So baring total failure of the equipment... you will be able to get the platform to ground level. (And IIRC previous employers had rescue statements simply stating that the platform would be lowered by people on the ground, the RA requiring someone to be about at ground level at all times).

 

And to the OP.

 

Before jumping the chain of command (although if its s H&S bod its not actually going over his head, you just go to your line manager). Have you asked the bod for the rescue plan for when someone falls? He may realise he doesn't actually know enough if you start asking him difficult questions!

 

I'm interested to hear what he offers as a plan! (and why the people actually doing the job are so rarely consulted when writing a RA!)

 

And using a counterweight set to rescue someone doesn't actually sound that mad... although there are more proviso's than you can shake a stick at...

[DavidLee]

I suggest that you seek advice from HSE on this matter. Probably the only advice that your so-called Health & Safety Officer is likely to accept!

 

I believe that HSE / Entertainment & Leisure has been extensively investigating Tallescope safety so they should be able to give you an official opinion.

 

Try:

Sarah Jardine

HM Inspector of Health and Safety

Entertainment and Leisure Sector

City Gate West

Toll House Hill

Nottingham NG1 5AT

Tel 0115 971 2813

 

Sarah.Jardine (_at_) hse.gsi.gov.uk

 

David

[andy_s]

I'd be interested to hear the response from the manufacturers - when we purchased a new tallescope 2 years ago, and had the training, the climbing of the ladder was identified as the area of most potential risk (assuming of course that the equipment was set up correctly). There was chat about including a built-in fall arrest system to the ladder, either an inertia reel or a channel with a sliding restraint thing up the centre of the ladder....I think similar things are used on very long ladders eg on cranes?

 

I should make clear that although the trainer was recommended by the manufacturers, anything that I report he said shouldn't be interpreted as a statement of intent on the manufacturer's part, and as far as I know, this hasn't been incorporated into tallescope design?

[Tomo]

As far as I'm aware all powered access equipment has controls at both ground and platform levels. So baring total failure of the equipment... you will be able to get the platform to ground level.

Yes - entirely true.

 

And even in the case of total pump failure, all scissor lifts have a manual pressure dump that brings the platform down - but very slowly.

(Not sure about pickers as I've never used one)

[Ike]

Does anyone have any figures for number of people who have needed resucing from the basket? Has anyone here ever had to effect a rescue, or known someone who has? This may be why everyone is scratching thier heads, as it's something thats [virtually] never happened.

 

I don't feel there is anything wrong with relying on the emergency services for an extremely rare possiblility. If it was something which was regularly (in the H&S incident way) happening that would be a different matter.

Precisely!!

In my opinion it comes down to that well used old phrase 'reasonably practical'. In a busy house that has people up scopes day in day out and with decent grid level access I really don't see any reason why with a small investment in kit and training a rescue plan can't be drawn up. A small venue who uses the scope for a few hours a week, has fewer permanent staff and no fixed flying facilities may however find it more difficult.

 

 

... So baring total failure of the equipment... you will be able to get the platform to ground level. (And IIRC previous employers had rescue statements simply stating that the platform would be lowered by people on the ground, the RA requiring someone to be about at ground level at all times).

The problem I have with this is that total failure isn't actually that uncommon. I've been stuck in a self propelled boom when someone *cough* managed to drop a bit of masonry on one of the hydraulic lines and burst it resulting in a bit of impromptu roped egress. I've also had to rescue someone from a (council) bucket truck that decided it was going to crap out on them while they were hanging Christmas lights (luckily we had two of them).

 

It seems to me that a suitable solution would again be a bit of basic training and having a rescue kit handy. Assuming you have someone on the ground you don't even need it in the bucket just chuck a hand line down to haul it up. This only leaves the question of what to do if the truck has had total failure and the occupants are badly injured or unconscious, or if doing anything is indeed possible.

[Seano]

See at work we don't have a flying grid we do have a balcony which you could (at a push) retrieve someone from scope hight. But unless the scope is next to it, we would have to move it to get them there.

 

I honestly don't know what else I could do.

 

You can include things in a rescue plan that wouldn't be acceptable in everyday working. We all know that you can move an occupied scope with relatively little risk (see any number of previous talle threads for lots of discussion). So its a no-brainer, if you can move the scope without precipitating a fall (and I suspect fainting in a talle basket = a fairly high likelihood of falling out anyway) you move the scope.

 

Does anyone have any figures for number of people who have needed resucing from the basket? Has anyone here ever had to effect a rescue, or known someone who has? This may be why everyone is scratching thier heads, as it's something thats [virtually] never happened.

 

We're still getting sidetracked by this scope malarky. A rescue plan is absolutely a necessity for work at height with a personal fall protection system - anywhere someone could become suspended in a harness, you need to have already thought about how they're going to get down/up/out.

 

A rescue plan for normal tallescope usage? I agree, that seems like overkill. People don't just randomly lose consciousness, if they did I'd be much more worried about bus drivers than people up scopes.

We definitely do need to consider the risk of someone just randomly losing consciousness in the basket though (and probably deal with it in a written RA) - so we need to make sure that the person up the scope is healthy, adequately fed and rested etc. We also need to be as sure as we can be that they're not going to get a belt off anything electrical.

 

Following a previous discussion on rescue from height, I actually spoke officially to the London Fire Service. Their training to rescue is limited to where they can take the fire appliance!

Training varies from brigade to brigade, and training in roped rescue is becoming more common. But you're absolutely right. One reason that you can't rely on "the local experts in their shiny red engines" is that they may not actually have any expertise to bring to bear - it depends on the situation. Given enough time they can do pretty much anything, but if they have to draw on from outside your local station it could take hours for help to arrive.

 

The nearest thing to local experts in my neck of the woods, as you say, is the Mountain Rescue Team. And even there skills in roped rescue are something of a specialism - their core skills are much more focussed on first-aid, navigation and search operations.

 

Have you asked the bod for the rescue plan for when someone falls? He may realise he doesn't actually know enough if you start asking him difficult questions!

There is no rescue plan, but as said (repeatedly) above the real problem is that this system of "fall-arrest" is worse than useless. There are more than enough difficult questions arising out of that.

 

And using a counterweight set to rescue someone doesn't actually sound that mad... although there are more proviso's than you can shake a stick at...

Possibly not. The main problem with such a 'creative' approach is training. When you have a rescue plan you also have to take steps to ensure it'll work - anything relying on the skill of the rescuer therefore needs training and practice. In a genuine emergency you can do things that wouldn't be acceptable in planned work - but training for rescue is planned work, and if you're proposing to do something in an emergency you also have to be able to practice when its not. Its a bit of a catch-22.

 

I'd be interested to hear the response from the manufacturers

See the other 'tallescope' threads - I'm not sure there's going to be much of a response from the manufacturers. They certainly aren't going to spend money on Tallescope R&D, from their point of view it just isn't an important part of their business.

 

the climbing of the ladder was identified as the area of most potential risk (assuming of course that the equipment was set up correctly).

Again, see the other tallescope threads - this is one of the main arguments in the debate around moving an occupied scope (that climbing the ladder a couple of dozen times in quick succession poses a greater risk than moving the scope in focussing the average rig). We shouldn't talk about that here, its off-topic for this thread and there are plenty of others covering that.

 

There was chat about including a built-in fall arrest system to the ladder, either an inertia reel or a channel with a sliding restraint thing up the centre of the ladder....I think similar things are used on very long ladders eg on cranes?

Not going to happen. If you do it, as a manufacturer, the fall-arrest system would have to conform to the appropriate British Standards. The anchors need to be strong and stable (eg: according to BS-EN795, the anchor for an inertia reel fall arrester must be able to withstand a load of 15kN for 3 minutes without significant damage or deformation) and no part of a tallescope is strong enough. This is also why the attachment points in the baskets of powered access machines are not rated for fall-arrest, they're for 'restraint' only.

 

The major staging companies are mostly using either fixed ropes and sliding chuck type devices (Rocker/ASAP etc.) or inertial reel type devices. I think tower cranes mostly have a lot of short ladders between landings rather than one long one.

 

Sean

x

[mikienorth]

We're still getting sidetracked by this scope malarky. A rescue plan for normal tallescope usage? I agree, that seems like overkill. People don't just randomly lose consciousness, if they did I'd be much more worried about bus drivers than people up scopes.

 

That is because this topic is about rescue from a Scope....

 

People randomly lose consciousness, just it's quite rare. Vasovagal Syncope, Reflex Anoxyic Synapse, Postural Tachycardia Syndrome (POTS) to start with. My partner suffers from one of these and works in the industry.

 

If the condition is known before the person starts work, they have a duty to inform their employer, and should it become apparent during the employment they again have to tell teir employer, as, obviously it affects what they can do.

 

There are legal things about this, but as I no longer work in a management type position, I've forgotten bits of it.

 

You don't risk assess or plan for these people being up a scope and passing out, you risk assess the person and their condition, and the risks associated with the condition. To minimise the risk to the sufferer you restrict what they can do, in the interests of thier safety. Do you expect a wheelchair user to climb a scope? It's not discriminatory.

 

These people know their limitations better than anyone else, and medication seriously controls it, so creating a plan for rescuing a random fainter from a scope isn't needed.

 

IMO a tallescope is a minature scaffold tower. Does the same H&S Nazi require rescue plans for scaffold towers on construction sites? If a person becomes unconcsious up a scope how likely are they to fall from the basket (Pretty likely at a guess) rendering any rescue plan pointless. The reasoning behind wearing harnesses in baskets of access equipment has been misunderstood by your H&S officer. They are for RESTRAINT not to keep you off the floor, rather to stop you over reaching and therefore overbalancing and falling to an uncomfortable hard floor.

 

Again, I don't know wehere this has happened, but I'm guessing in a school or similar venue where the H&S persons are not familiar with the equipment we use. This is not about how we use it (against instructions) rather WHAT we use.

 

The H&S person has got major gaps in his knowledge with regards the WaH regulations. Sadly, all too often decisions are taken like this that endanger people. Clipping off to soft aluminium rungs on a tallescope whilst climbing? These rungs are replaced and rotated around the scope every two years or so under regular servicing as they are weakened by the extension system rubbing against them each time the scope is lifted and lowered. They bend under heavy normal use. Are they going to arrest a fall? You need 4m below you to make a fall arrest work before you hit the deck, only on the bigger scopes are you going to get that.

 

Rescue plans need to be in place where fall arrest/rope access is used due to orthostatic intolerance. Tallescopes are a bit of an anomaly as they aren't big enough to allow treatment at height. Should you get a casualty on a scaffold tower, you can get up there and treat them until equipment/skills arrive to carry out a rescue.

 

Remove the (uneccesary) harness use from the tallescope and you remove the need for rescue.

A tallescope is not the last resort for the work, rope access and PPE is...

 

This is an awkward subject, as are tallescopes in general. But lets separate general rescue planning from the fact that someone has been told he needs a plan for tallescope rescue please.

[SlackerWill]

I have spoke to the manufactures about the use of a harness on the scope. As you've all probably guessed, at no point should you attach yourself to a Tallescope. The reason for this is that if you were to slip or fall while attached there is a possibility of tipping the scope over with you. You might survive the fall but then be crushed.

 

It is acceptable in their opinion to wear a harness at the top but to be clip on to a fixed structure if available.

 

I shall put this to my H&S man, stay tuned.

 

Will

[TomLyall]

It is acceptable in their opinion to wear a harness at the top but to be clip on to a fixed structure if available.

 

Only if the structure you're clipping on to is rated for this purpose.