Musicians Earplugs?

[mwolfenden]

Hi

 

As I am planning to start doing more sound engineering I am starting to look into sound limits etc. and am slightly concerned about damaging my hearing! Clearly it is the most important thing for any sound engineer or musician to be able to hear well, so I am very determined to ensure that I protect myself as best as I can.

 

So my question is, how many people here wear musicians earplugs regularly? I know they are supposed to attenuate sounds evenly across the frequency range but how true is this in reality? I am concerned that it may be a bad idea to mix with earplugs in incase what you are hearing is completely different to what the audience/band are hearing (apart from volume, of course). Or perhaps it's better to do an initial mix without them and then wear them for fine tuning throughout the gig?

 

My other question relating to it is where can you buy good ones from in England? Are the one-size-fits-all ones any good or is it only really worth going for the painfully expensive custom fitted ones?

 

Thanks,

 

Mark

[Ynot]

Not quite on topic, but I'm personally in the group of people who believe that if it's loud enough to risk damaging your ears, it's most certainly TOO loud! Not that seems to make a difference to many live concerts, unfortunately.

 

There is, and long has been, the false belief that rock and pop shows HAVE to be ear-splitting in volume. False, because I believe that a properly mixed and distributed PA can have the impact of a fair volume without the over-driven element.

 

Loud does NOT always equal better!

[SteveAATW]

That is true but with the exception of four maybe five speaker manufacturers a lot could be done to reduce the distortion and non-linearity in speaker systems which would in turn allow people to have a similar perceived volume for a lower SPL - its sh#t speakers which do a lot of the damage and there's far too many out there in use - stand in front of say an RCF box and a Funktion One box of similar output and you know which one is going to hurt your ears, yes the F1 box costs a lot more - but what price hearing. Since we've had the Funktion One system in ringing ears have been confined to history - especially in the DJ stand where the monitoring is done by a Res 1 - so no compression drivers at all. There are of course punters who put there heads inside the F218's (why would you do that?) but some people are always going to be daft!

[GShort]

The centre I work at is actually part of the National Grammar School for the Deaf. One of the other parts of the organisation makes ear moulds of all types including musicians ones.

These have a 9, 15 or 25dB filter that attenuates the sound evenly across all frequencies meaning they can still be used when mixing.

I have a pair that I've had for a few months and they are so comfy I occasionally forget I am wearing them!!

 

Dont want to appear like I am pushing the organisation but it's worth noting that any money spent goes to the charity to support children who are profoundly deaf.

 

If you want more info drop me a PM.

 

Regards

 

Gavin

[daveh]

You might want to check out http://www.hearingprotection.co.uk/musicians-protection.htm

I don't have any issues using hearing protection post sound check when needs must if it's going to be a long day. The Elacin work for me - tho they do take a little getting used to.

I've been pushing faders for 30 years with minimal damage by taking care foh & pluggin the lugs anywhere near drums & gtr cabs on stage.

[bruce]

Check out this thread which covers very similar issues.

 

and this one

[Jivemaster]

Yes a muso set of plugs is well worth the money! You only have one set of ears!

 

Take three thoughts to protect your hearing.

 

Noise level at work, Noise level out of work and time of exposure. Everything you can reduce will help preserve your hearing. Consider having a set of ear defenders (construction style) for noisy DIY and work get ins.

[Shez]

Or perhaps it's better to do an initial mix without them and then wear them for fine tuning throughout the gig?

If you're the one pushing the faders, there isn't really any excuse for excessive levels. If it's too loud at the back of the room, pity the poor souls at the front...

I mix at sensible levels that don't leave my ears ringing. If the bands / promoters want it at ear bleeding volumes, they can book someone else because I won't go there.

 

(I'll leave the discussions of drumkits & marshall 4x12s in tiny venues for another time. No I can't turn it down, it's not even in the PA...)

[mwolfenden]

If you're the one pushing the faders, there isn't really any excuse for excessive levels.

 

Sure I completely agree with this - I'm not necessarily talking about painful levels of sound, but more the concern that even at sensible levels for the sort of durations that most gigs go on for could lead to damage in the longer term over many years.

 

What level do you guys consider to be 'not excessive' for the mix position? I'm assuming round about 100dB would be a reasonable level for a rock gig but even at that level for 3 hours would it not cause damage?

[Chris L]

Hey

 

100dB is very loud and will cause hearing damage with prolonged exposure, I'd've thought that it would be too loud for a mix position if you're any distance from the speakers. Correct me if I am wrong, but every time you double the distance from the speakers you take 6dB off the SPL. So if you're 16m away, your speakers are putting out 124dB at 1m - this is way too much for the audience who are that close.

 

Ear-plugs related, do sound engineers need so called "musician's earplugs" which say they evenly attenuate all frequencies?

Because the human ear's frequency response varies at different volumes, would't an engineer who wanted to hear exactly the same but at 80dB instead of 100dB need a pair of plugs with a tailored frequency response to accounte for the ear's change?

 

Chris

[MarkPAman]

Correct me if I am wrong, but every time you double the distance from the speakers you take 6dB off the SPL. So if you're 16m away, your speakers are putting out 124dB at 1m - this is way too much for the audience who are that close.

 

Only true when there are no reflections complicating things. Particularly indoors, volume drops much less as you go back from the speakers. One venue where I did some measurements had only about 3dB difference between front and back.

[norty303]

Ear-plugs related, do sound engineers need so called "musician's earplugs" which say they evenly attenuate all frequencies?

Because the human ear's frequency response varies at different volumes, would't an engineer who wanted to hear exactly the same but at 80dB instead of 100dB need a pair of plugs with a tailored frequency response to accounte for the ear's change?

 

Read what you've written again....

 

 

If you apply the same amount of attenuation across the frequency range you WILL hear exactly the same but 20db lower. If you tailored the frequency response (say by applying the Fletcher Munson curves) you would start to hear a different signal than that which is coming from the speakers - not something I'd find desirable when trying to mix.

[Bryson]

Has anyone considered the additional hazard to the audience that could be presented by an engineer wearing 'plugs? Particularly if he or she is unused to mixing "quieter", there will be a tendency to push the level even further, causing higher SPL's for the audience and therefore a greater hazard.

 

Thoughts?

[Chris L]

What I meant was a pair of earplugs which enable you to hear exactly what 100dB sounds like, but at 80dB. For this, you'd need a frequency response which takes into account the change in frequency response of the ear from 100dB to 80dB.

So the volume around you is 100dB, but you hear exactly the same sound but at 80dB with the plugs in.

Ie, that it takes into account the difference between the fletcher munson curves at 80dB and 100dB.

 

Edit:

I'd agree that if you do it completely by ear, there would definately be a tendancy for the volume to be higher with plugs in, but would it be possible for the engineer to use the meters on the desk to help them not fall into this trap? - obviously a fair amount of self-discipline is involved in this.

[mwolfenden]

It would probably be best to set the levels without the earplugs, but then once they have initially been set then it would just be a matter of resisting the urge to turn it up when you have the earplugs in. This could also be checked by using a sound meter at the mixing position.

 

Out of interest, what level at mixing point do you normally find yourself at/set the PA to?