looking for ideas to create a lighting 'boom'? which can change it's height automatically

[mrleemtl]

I want to have a shin (diagonal back), which slowly gets higher while lit. I am somewhat limited in terms of fly capacity as the flybars 'top out' at the ceiling - ie. not a true flyhouse with a tower.

My best idea so far is a drop-pipe right to the floor, with a slightly lower trim than possible (3-4') which would give me a bit of space to get higher, but this is not ideal, especially since I will eventually be moving the show to another (lame) house with a flying grid system that makes a huge racket.. Additionally, I could only hide a lower trim flybar behind a border of about 4' high, and it would be great to be able to raise the projector about 3 meters (+/-10'). I do not want to see the flybar in front of the backdrop (cyc or otherwise to be determined)

I might want the projector to be a mover.

Anyone have thoughts?

Cheers

mrleemtl

 

[Bryson]

If you have a healthy budget, I'm sure Scēne Ēthique would be happy to make you something. 😉

I was thinking maybe a material lift of some kind, but I imagine they're all too noisy for live use:  https://www.genielift.com/en/material-handling-products/material-lifts - does anyone know if the pneumatic version is quiet in use?

Kind of overkill, but a short length of truss and a couple of chain hoists?

[kerry davies]

Like Bryson I saw your location and thought immediately of Cirque du Soleil who are Quebecois and brilliant at this sort of thing. They might share some brain space with you but my own first thought, which could be totally off the beam, was to hire a camera boom/crane which come in all sorts of size and configuration. It would need a stage hand to operate but might be flexible enough to take "on tour".

Check out the variety at www.haguecamerasupports.com/jibs-cranes-booms

Edited January 23 by kerry davies

[ImagineerTom]

Just to be the grinch here... what you're making is ultimately a piece of automation so in-show-use it will need lots of safety switches / crash sensors on it, some heavy-duty safety assessment paperwork and probably a dedicated member of backstage team responsible for checking it and operating (or overseeing its "automatic" operation) in the show. This is something that will require $00000's of equipment (that admittedly you may be able to rent rather than buy) and a weekly operating/staffing cost of at least $1000 so before you get your heart too set on this its worth stopping to make sure the show has a budget that can absorb those sorts of costs?

[James Remo]

Something like the wahlberg lifting column, or possibly one of their winch systems come to mind

https://wahlberg.dk/products/motors/lifting-column

https://wahlberg.dk/products/DMX-winches/winch-50-double-plus-power-and-cat5

[J Pearce]

42 minutes ago, ImagineerTom said:

Just to be the grinch here... what you're making is ultimately a piece of automation so in-show-use it will need lots of safety switches / crash sensors on it, some heavy-duty safety assessment paperwork and probably a dedicated member of backstage team responsible for checking it and operating (or overseeing its "automatic" operation) in the show. This is something that will require $00000's of equipment (that admittedly you may be able to rent rather than buy) and a weekly operating/staffing cost of at least $1000 so before you get your heart too set on this its worth stopping to make sure the show has a budget that can absorb those sorts of costs?

Caution is always wise, but I think you're overstating it. Yes it will need some looking after, but there may already be someone on the show who can do that for this cue. Lots of shows have automation, or indeed flying - it's not that cutting edge really.

I can think of a few ways to do it from low tech to high tech, both human powered and automated. The simplest is probably a vertical truss/frame with a trolley that rides up and down, a pulley at the top and either a counterweight or a motor to control it. The cost of that would be into £000s, but not 10s or 100s of them. You could build it inside a frame style 'ballet boom' with caging on the outside if your RA called for it. A bit more weight and stuff than flying, but it eliminates wobble and means you're less relient on venue infrastructure if you're going to places with minimal flying setups. At most fly tower equipped venues you'd probably just trapeze or scaff it off a fly bar (with perhaps some consideration to weight at the other end to avoid unbalancing the bar).

For off the shelf bits - the camera lift poles that are fitted to remote operation cameras might be a solution. I was playing in my head with keeping the light source on the deck and moving a mirror, but I think that would cause too many issues with the focus. Or as above, a 1m stick of truss and a couple of automated hoists with a 'safe zone' below. A member of crew just outside the safe zone with an estop is a simple control measure for that scenario.

[Bryson]

9 hours ago, kerry davies said:

Like Bryson I saw your location and thought immediately of Cirque du Soleil who are Quebecois and brilliant at this sort of thing.

Scēne Ēthique do custom work for Cirque and Robert Lepage - they're the real deal.  They aren't cheap, mind, but they'll do it better than you imagine. 

5 hours ago, James Remo said:

Something like the wahlberg lifting column, or possibly one of their winch systems come to mind

https://wahlberg.dk/products/motors/lifting-column

That first product looks almost perfect but probably too high when stowed?

[Dave m]

Does the projected image have to be seen while the rig is in motion?

What about a pantograph? I admit that the ones I used are manual, but motorised ones are available,

[sunray]

I keep seeing this thread and not knowing the term 'shin' I struggle to understand what is required, I assume 'diagonal back' is the lighting (projector) format, initially I assumed it is some sort of rear projector screen to rise while in use or the projector to do so, could someone enlighten me please?

[alistermorton]

I'm guessing low side light as used to illuminate a dancer's legs. Helps to accentuate the movement. See also "shinbusters" - lanterns mounted low down in the wings (where you can smack your shins?).

Edited January 24 by alistermorton

[dje]

Yes, 'shins' generally just refer to lanterns installed in the bottom of the booms.

To answer the question, @James Remo clearly provides the model answer for a product that already exists but I share the one concern that perhaps it's a little high when fully stowed. If that's the case, honestly I'd probably fix a 50mm tube onto a pair of linear guide rails (running vertically) in a frame and use a Wahlberg Winch 1 DMX winch (sub-1000 euros) to pull it up, let the weight pull it back down. You could alternatively drive a leadscrew with a DMX motor which would probably give you more precision positioning (same principle - run it up and down linear guide rails) - attach the 50mm tube to the ballnut so that when the motor turns the tube runs up and down the leadscrew.

I don't agree with Tom's assessment that you'll need somebody costing thousands of pounds a week there to run it... any more than you'd need such a person to get an elevator up to the grid or open the motorised dock door. 

Edited January 24 by dje

[sunray]

Ah right. So this is just the light source, no screen.

 

A bar on couple of wires on a winch like a curtain winder drum but for a 3m lift it will move a lot.

I used to install things like this but getting 3m lift behind a 1200mm border is pushing the luck and the lamp will still swing over that drop.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/CGOLDENWALL-electric-projector-ceiling-Projector/dp/B015VUUVUW/ref=asc_df_B015VUUVUW/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=375420566373&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4590922493614378784&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045111&hvtargid=pla-634168023357&psc=1&mcid=4054a65a8a9534528a3e953cde361154&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=85278568548&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=375420566373&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4590922493614378784&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045111&hvtargid=pla-634168023357

at £400, I think we were £2K 25 years ago.

We also used to install projector screen winches which were slow (~30sec/m) but very quiet but I don't think they'd be strong enough.

 

Realisticaly I think the suggestion of a pair of vertical guide rails and winch is about right.

food for thought but electric winch?

[ImagineerTom]

On 1/23/2024 at 10:39 AM, J Pearce said:

Caution is always wise, but I think you're overstating it. Yes it will need some looking after, but there may already be someone on the show who can do that for this cue. Lots of shows have automation, or indeed flying - it's not that cutting edge really.

I can think of a few ways to do it from low tech to high tech, both human powered and automated. The simplest is probably a vertical truss/frame with a trolley that rides up and down, a pulley at the top and either a counterweight or a motor to control it. The cost of that would be into £000s, but not 10s or 100s of them. You could build it inside a frame style 'ballet boom' with caging on the outside if your RA called for it. A bit more weight and stuff than flying, but it eliminates wobble and means you're less relient on venue infrastructure if you're going to places with minimal flying setups. At most fly tower equipped venues you'd probably just trapeze or scaff it off a fly bar (with perhaps some consideration to weight at the other end to avoid unbalancing the bar).

For off the shelf bits - the camera lift poles that are fitted to remote operation cameras might be a solution. I was playing in my head with keeping the light source on the deck and moving a mirror, but I think that would cause too many issues with the focus. Or as above, a 1m stick of truss and a couple of automated hoists with a 'safe zone' below. A member of crew just outside the safe zone with an estop is a simple control measure for that scenario.

pushing back a bit here - the OP does ask for something that does it "automatically" suggesting there isn't currently backstage staff with the time / skills to do this manually, the OP also works in contemporary dance which is almost universally under-funded and under staffed from a tech crew point of view; these are the markers that normally indicate to me that this automation is to save money / reduce staffing when in reality its not going to. The op is also very clear about this starting at almost ground level and raising up to 3m which puts all the pantographs / chains / home made systems mentioned right into prime "something gets caught" height range so if implemented would require multiple safety interlocks and stage crew to monitor when in motion; more complications and costs.

Also dancers in dance companies do have an incredible ability to put themselves in harms way backstage.

to the OP - the closest to off-the-shelf you will find is going to be something from wahlberg but please do also consider your design and implementation very carefully - something which can lift 30kg of moving light 3m up and down will punch holes in sets, tear curtains and slice bits off humans within seconds if anything goes wrong so you do have to ensure you are taking proper precautions and have considered every worst case scenario.

[sunray]

7 hours ago, ImagineerTom said:

pushing back a bit here - the OP does ask for something that does it "automatically" suggesting there isn't currently backstage staff with the time / skills to do this manually, the OP also works in contemporary dance which is almost universally under-funded and under staffed from a tech crew point of view; these are the markers that normally indicate to me that this automation is to save money / reduce staffing when in reality its not going to. The op is also very clear about this starting at almost ground level and raising up to 3m which puts all the pantographs / chains / home made systems mentioned right into prime "something gets caught" height range so if implemented would require multiple safety interlocks and stage crew to monitor when in motion; more complications and costs.

Also dancers in dance companies do have an incredible ability to put themselves in harms way backstage.

to the OP - the closest to off-the-shelf you will find is going to be something from wahlberg but please do also consider your design and implementation very carefully - something which can lift 30kg of moving light 3m up and down will punch holes in sets, tear curtains and slice bits off humans within seconds if anything goes wrong so you do have to ensure you are taking proper precautions and have considered every worst case scenario.

Very well said.

[mrleemtl]

Thanks everybody for your suggestions.

I am still in reflexion.. looking for the least high tech / cheapest solution.

Some good ideas here.

Cheers,

mrlee