All non agri plant to run on clear diesel from 1st April 2022

[weedkiller]

This will increase costs for gennys, telehandlers, and all other diesel plant.  At least double price of fuel.  All traces of rebated fuel need to be removed from fuel systems for non agri use.  Also affects gas oil heating systems.  Increased risk of theft also likely

[adam2]

Costs will indeed increase, but I support this measure due to environmental concerns. The higher running costs of diesel burning plant and machinery will hopefully prompt more careful use, and greater consideration of alternatives.

AFAIK, red diesel fuel will still be permitted for DOMESTIC heating but not for oil burning heating in non domestic premises.

[ImagineerTom]

As always, the details of this change in the regs haven't been thought through. For example showmen exemption remains (red diesel to power funfairs, circus's etc) but no mechanism or clarification as to how that is to be monitored; if it's a cold night and we pop the (diesel powered) heater on do we have to paypal the government? Funfair rides on red diesel is simple enough but what about burger vans powered from the same system.... what about staff welfare, admin offices, all stuff that is in the business of running a show but not exclusively "showman" use... if I set up a bouncy castle next to a burger van in a layby does that count as exempt?

As others have pointed out red has dyes in it that are designed to last; is every last generator and plant machine in the country supposed to be stripped, cleaned, machined, re-sealed or are we going to have a 5+ year window when it's actually impossible to accurately tell if red or taxed fuel has been consistently used?

And finally there's not a proper system in place for the fuel suppliers to handle their customers who are still exempted and so at present many are simply abandoning supplying any "red" because it would appear that the final system will be that they will have to pay the duty initially then produce a mountain of paperwork to show what percentage they sold to rated and non rated users and what steps they have taken to ensure it's not escaping into the other tax bracketed use.

[themadhippy]

Quote

and greater consideration of alternatives.

which are?

Quote

the details of this change in the regs haven't been thought through.

government thinking thinks through,never going to happen.So we force all heavy pant equipment to either use normal more expensive diesel,increasing the cost of construction, or get them to switch to electric.So wheres the electric coming from to recharge these machines that are often used  in the middle of nowhere,I know lets ship in a diesel generator to run overnight to charge the plant.

[adam2]

The alternatives that I was thinking of include.

Mains power instead of generator power, greener and cheaper, it will in many cases become economic to provide larger mains supplies in places that host outdoor events. And of course economy in electricity consumption to reduce generator diesel fuel used.

Battery fork lift trucks and other plant could replace diesel in some circumstances, and again economy and prudent use of diesel powered plant, no more leaving it running all day to save starting when needed.

I do not believe that showmen, fairgrounds and the like should be allowed to use red diesel. That would cut out a lot of arguments about what fuel is to power different parts, "white only, throughout, no argument"

[Junior8]

2 hours ago, ImagineerTom said:

As always, the details of this change in the regs haven't been thought through. For example showmen exemption remains (red diesel to power funfairs, circus's etc) but no mechanism or clarification as to how that is to be monitored; if it's a cold night and we pop the (diesel powered) heater on do we have to paypal the government? Funfair rides on red diesel is simple enough but what about burger vans powered from the same system.... what about staff welfare, admin offices, all stuff that is in the business of running a show but not exclusively "showman" use... if I set up a bouncy castle next to a burger van in a layby does that count as exempt?

 

Showmen's Guild Rule 21 B (5)

Fuel Oil. A member shall be guilty of an offence if the Section Committee (or Appeals Committee on appeal) are satisfied on one or both of the   following matters:  

(a) that rebated fuel has been found in the road tank of any vehicle operated by him, or has been used to propel such vehicle.  

(b) that he has used rebated fuel in the propelling engine of a licensed road vehicle when such engine is employed for generating electricity, unless the propeller shaft of such vehicle is disconnected by removing the coupling bolts, and the engine draws the rebated fuel from a tank or drum not mounted on the vehicle.  

(c) The Section Committee may authorise any two Members of the Committee to inspect and report on any particular vehicle in relation to matters in paragraphs (a) and (b) above, but the Committee shall impose no penalty based on such report unless and until a complaint has been laid and determined against the member concerned. A Section Committee or Appeals Committee shall have power to act under this clause, whether or not a prosecution in a Court of Law has been   brought against a member, but conviction by such Court may be treated as proof of an offence under this rule.

 

[ImagineerTom]

If a multi million pound, annual, predictable, stable festival like Glastonbury (with it’s heavy eco focus) can’t even get close to justifying mains infrastructure installation what possible hope does a small funfair (itself made up of dozens of small business and freelancers with no long term stability) have of installing mains hook in and distro at the 20+ different sites they visit per year?

electric powered forks / teles are a decade away from being even vaguely comparable to diesel powered units in real world situations. What do we do in the intervening period- double the fee overnight and hope the market keeps growing?

[ImagineerTom]

13 minutes ago, Junior8 said:

 

Showmen's Guild Rule 21 B (5)

Fuel Oil. A member shall be guilty of an offence if the Section Committee (or Appeals Committee on appeal) are satisfied on one or both of the   following matters:  

(a) that rebated fuel has been found in the road tank of any vehicle operated by him, or has been used to propel such vehicle.  

(b) that he has used rebated fuel in the propelling engine of a licensed road vehicle when such engine is employed for generating electricity, unless the propeller shaft of such vehicle is disconnected by removing the coupling bolts, and the engine draws the rebated fuel from a tank or drum not mounted on the vehicle.  

(c) The Section Committee may authorise any two Members of the Committee to inspect and report on any particular vehicle in relation to matters in paragraphs (a) and (b) above, but the Committee shall impose no penalty based on such report unless and until a complaint has been laid and determined against the member concerned. A Section Committee or Appeals Committee shall have power to act under this clause, whether or not a prosecution in a Court of Law has been   brought against a member, but conviction by such Court may be treated as proof of an offence under this rule.

 

Showman’s guild are one (of many) trade associations not government bodies with legal powers. As I said (and speaking as somone involved in a group representing many showman’s organisations in these discussions) how do you craft a system that actually works rather than randomly penalising honest members trying their best to do the right thing whilst having no control at all over wholesale deliberate fraud by non members?

 

also the regs you mention relate to using red for transportation - not something that’s in question. The question is if red can be used for showman activities (ie powering stuff at a funfair or circus) then exactly how much circus or funfair is needed relative to how much non expressly showman activity to qualify. One heater in a 2000 Circus tent, one burger van surrounded by 20 funfair rides is pretty clear…. But what about one burger van with 5 rides at a village fete…. 1 van with a bouncy castle…. Are these all 100% red allowed or?

Edited January 20, 2022 by ImagineerTom

[TomHoward]

I'm not begrudging the use of red diesel for funfairs, but it seems out of line with the main theme of blanket ban for commercial use. We are a school, and I guess they'll have to stop using red diesel for groundskeeping as it looks like it counts as a commercial use.

It's hard to tell who it's aimed at as it penalises construction industry but allows agricultural and forestry an exemption. The arguments that it's to drive a greener switch and more accurately reflect the emissions from these red diesel construction vehicles could apply to agricultural too?

Is it a rural vs urban split to reduce emissions in cities as most of the exemptions seem to be rural uses?

[TomHoward]

With a generator hire company, if a unit is hired out for backup generation for a church it can use red? But for filming it would require clear diesel / DERV?

[adam2]

2 hours ago, TomHoward said:

With a generator hire company, if a unit is hired out for backup generation for a church it can use red? But for filming it would require clear diesel / DERV?

My understanding is that white diesel would be required for the generator in either of those situations.

[kerry davies]

Places of worship and hospitals are exempt so Red is fine, see also sports clubs, TomHoward. 

iTom's burger van is also fine if he keeps a sleeping bag in a cupboard and claims it is a caravan

Amateur sports clubs are exempt but so too are golf courses because MPs play golf and are corrupt.

I do like the idea that my mates on narrow boats can use any amount of Red for generation when moored up but are supposed to use White for propulsion during their monthly 400 yard trundle to a new berth. 

What really makes a mockery of the environmental arguments for change is that bio-diesel is now taxed the same as DERV so all that work our industry led on to address the problems has been flushed down a non-composting toilet. 

Edited January 21, 2022 by kerry davies

[adam2]

Whilst I stand to be corrected, my understanding was that the exemption for places of worship only applies to permanently installed generators for back up power, or indeed for full time power in places without mains power.

A hired generator does IMHO need white diesel, even if hired to a church. Anyway, all but unusually large and complex churches manage with candles in the absence of electric light.

 

[Junior8]

9 hours ago, ImagineerTom said:

Showman’s guild are one (of many) trade associations not government bodies with legal powers. As I said (and speaking as somone involved in a group representing many showman’s organisations in these discussions) how do you craft a system that actually works rather than randomly penalising honest members trying their best to do the right thing whilst having no control at all over wholesale deliberate fraud by non members?

 

also the regs you mention relate to using red for transportation - not something that’s in question. The question is if red can be used for showman activities (ie powering stuff at a funfair or circus) then exactly how much circus or funfair is needed relative to how much non expressly showman activity to qualify. One heater in a 2000 Circus tent, one burger van surrounded by 20 funfair rides is pretty clear…. But what about one burger van with 5 rides at a village fete…. 1 van with a bouncy castle…. Are these all 100% red allowed or?

Agreed but they do their best as they see the exemption as being too valuable to lose - and  the farmers organisations haven't been much more effective in this area with the mavericks. On the second it's always seemed to me that the question is actually quite easy in practice. A fun bag is prima facie an amusement device and could on its own constitute a fair the same with a juvenile. As in the law of markets and fairs no definition of what constitutes a market or fair in terms of size has ever been drawn up I don't see any alternative. My own view re canteens is simple. If you are open with other amusement devices you might have a case for red - and I suspect in practice the question here would never arise - in a layby or a market or a B&Q car park you might struggle. In the real world the authorities if they were out dipping would have more interest in what was in the tank of the truck than the little set for the tea urn.

And let's be honest they know just where to go dipping if they want to feel a few collars...

In any event when I last looked into it maybe three years ago  the detection hit rate for commercial vehicles was about 3% of tests carried out a figure whereas the rate for private vehicles and bulk storage sites as well as the few fuel launderers was 14%. In reality they know exactly where to target these days as they monitor the supply chain from source to retail. In mainland UK the last figure I saw for estimates of revenue losses due to misuse was £50m. When I started covering the trade  in 1999 it was about 20 times that. 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Junior8

[sunray]

Our fixed standby generators at work (BT) used red as did our trailer mounted portables.

Now the next bit was always troublesome, we had a very old bedford with a fitted genset and a 100gallon tank of red (left over from the days of crown vehicles and still showing the 'by appointment' insignia), the road engine ran on the same tank but we had a licence to do so, one copy of which was kept on the log sheet clipboard in a plastic sleeve and (as I understand it) each year the MOT milage was submitted and duty paid on that. Twice I got stopped driving it and it took ages to get the officials to accept the system, one of my colleagues spent a night in the cells over it.

14 hours ago, Junior8 said:

 

Showmen's Guild Rule 21 B (5)

Fuel Oil. A member shall be guilty of an offence if the Section Committee (or Appeals Committee on appeal) are satisfied on one or both of the   following matters:  

(a) that rebated fuel has been found in the road tank of any vehicle operated by him, or has been used to propel such vehicle.  

(b) that he has used rebated fuel in the propelling engine of a licensed road vehicle when such engine is employed for generating electricity, unless the propeller shaft of such vehicle is disconnected by removing the coupling bolts, and the engine draws the rebated fuel from a tank or drum not mounted on the vehicle.  

(c) The Section Committee may authorise any two Members of the Committee to inspect and report on any particular vehicle in relation to matters in paragraphs (a) and (b) above, but the Committee shall impose no penalty based on such report unless and until a complaint has been laid and determined against the member concerned. A Section Committee or Appeals Committee shall have power to act under this clause, whether or not a prosecution in a Court of Law has been   brought against a member, but conviction by such Court may be treated as proof of an offence under this rule.

 

Has this always been the case?

In the 70's I took 2 weeks leave from work and joined a fair (Family friends) to help out when they had lots of illness, everything ran on red, including all the road engines.