Why so much compression and why so loud

[Robin D]

At an arena type event last night. A huge hanger type roof. I was 3/4 way back, I estimate c150 metres from the array. The vast majority of the audience of a certain age as an early 70's band. Soooooo much compression on the instruments the sound arrived a mush and vocals almost unintelligible. I recorded peaks well into the mid 90's dB admittedly on a phone but it gives an indication. Loads and loads of people walked before me (after 4 tracks). As I was supposedly being entertained, I didn't expect to take ear defenders.

 

Why? Is it simply the sound guys are deaf?

[Simon Lewis]

Why? Is it simply the sound guys are deaf?

 

I do not think the sound guy is deaf... I think that collectively, many sound engineers have learnt or have been taught to mix with a "bass haystack" eq, that the kick has to sound a certain way with in and out mics, compressed and probably triggered too, that bass guitar doesn't get its own range anymore but is only allowed the bottom octave so as to give separation, that vocals are treated with multiple compression, dynamic equalisation and reverbs from endless libraries of treatments from a server that takes up the first 15 minutes of soundcheck to get working and on the right version to work with the desk, that tracks get added in, making the mix heavier and more complex and that the PA - once the weak link that struggled to get enough audio bandwidth and level in the larger venue - is now efficient, compact, can reach down to 30Hz with some ease and is deployed in sufficient quantities to ensure headroom is never a problem.

 

I was at a community / charity bonfire recently. The bass was mixed so loud that it was almost as if the mid and high outputs of a three way crossover had been muted. There was some playback stuff and DJ stuff going which had bass that was physically uncomfortable. Then there was a couple of guys with acoustics, whose vocals couldn't be heard through the booming 120Hz resonance of the guitars. Even the acapella men's choir sounded rough, but they backed off from the mics and self regulated the levels somewhat.

 

Songs from the 60s to 80s played back were largely unrecognisable, as the relationship between bass and kick to the rest of the voices and instruments was out by ~ 20dB.

 

It was a good job the bonfire was far better than the audio...

[paulears]

My new system for the summer can go very loud, and I had a choice of coverage - we started with it flown high, but struggled with the front, and low we struggled with the back - even though it has compensation on each cabinet for distance (it drops the HF in 3dB steps) In the end - with 1400 capacity and 36 rows on one level, we picked a line for the average audience number and that means that the mix position is just out of the main beam. Every visiting sound folk are shown this, and so few take any notice. The last one was excruciatingly loud - lots of complaints at the interval and from row W forwards towards the stage it was just painful. Why they needed to be that loud really is beyond me. However - I know now how loud the system is capable of without trouble - which makes me wonder why one show a few weeks before blew one of the sub drivers. I was on stage, so didn't notice but the next show soundcheck revealed the problem. At that point, one of my lot remembered seeing one of their people coming out of the covered pit. What's in there? The amp rack!

 

I suspect that some front of house guys really have got hearing damage. However - I think others really believe certain music has to be that loud, or its not a good show. As our get-in box push is VERY long, so many visiting crews leave the PA on the truck and use ours. Last year - we allowed them access to our amp rack ins, this year they get two channels on our desk, next to our lighting guy who now gets to pull their levels if they start to take the P. Some complain - next visit, they get the box push.

[kerry davies]

Nothing new. A good quality "clean" sound is usually able to be tolerable much louder than a distorted noise but many people including some humheads only identify "loud" when it is "noise". When they encounter a high quality big rig they tend to turn it up until it creates noise by which time it is up there in the danger zone. Some bands touring their own monitors have it so loud that FoH is just about off and most channels are on DFA buttons.

[Ynot]

This is definitely something I sympathise with.

I reckon I've said as much here in the past - that there is an unspoken equation that LOUD = GOOD when in a lot of cases my experience has concluded the opposite.

 

I'll admit to not having gone to many gigs over the years, but enough to have arrived at a fairly accurate conclusion on whether they're good.

 

My daughters are McFly fans, and I have been with them on a couple of their shows - the Birmingham NEC arena was pretty good - one gig we were about 2/3 the way back in the flat zone, but we got moved by a steward part way through to a side bleecher section and there wasn't a huge difference overall to the quality of what we heard.

Then there was one in Wolverhampton where we were on the side balcony - not too far from the flown cabs. And the distortion on those was horrendous which hurt my ears even more than the volume - which IMHO was WAAAY too loud.

 

I listened from a more frontal position at one point as I popped a head in after a bathroom break, and it wasn't any better from there.

 

I know that there's a need to drown out the screaming teens at these things (I've never really understood the need for that, right back to the Beatles etc, but ho hum) but it's often way too overcompensated for, meaning the whole thing can be painful.

[sunray]

Nothing new. A good quality "clean" sound is usually able to be tolerable much louder ...

Apologies but this sounds like a typical sound muppets excuse.

[Ynot]

Nothing new. A good quality "clean" sound is usually able to be tolerable much louder ...

Apologies but this sounds like a typical sound muppets excuse.

huh???

[Andrew C]

Worst "proper" gig (rather than sweaty pub) was Clannad at Salisbury Squash Court, City Hall. OK, not an easy venue, but it was face-peeling top-end-tastic. We kept looking at the noiz boy, who was sitting back with a pleased look on his face. Maybe he'd just been sacked? Maybe he'd blown the top end of his hearing?

[Robin D]

There was an adage when I was a few years younger when we lost the tape echo machines and other effects became more prevalent... "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should"! Talking to someone else at the same show with macular degeneration who found the ultra bright beams sweeping the audience really painful and had to leave because of that plus they couldn't make out a word of the lyrics through the din.

 

Good to know it's not just me turning into Victor Meldew. ?

[sandall]

Maybe he'd blown the top end of his hearing?

A problem I had to work out when I discovered a lot of top-end loss was how dull-sounding (to me) a mix did I need to offer the punters so it didn't rip their ears off.

[Junior8]

There was an adage when I was a few years younger when we lost the tape echo machines and other effects became more prevalent... "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should"! Talking to someone else at the same show with macular degeneration who found the ultra bright beams sweeping the audience really painful and had to leave because of that plus they couldn't make out a word of the lyrics through the din.

 

Good to know it's not just me turning into Victor Meldew. ?

 

In 2019 I went to a small hog roast event in an open sided marquee where the entertainment was the typical backing track and two piece both with guitars. They were travelling as much PA as a six piece band would have done for a theatre forty years ago and not only was it too loud - until they were told enough times to damn well turn it down - but also quite awful quality. The problem wasn't the amplification it was the fact that the desk and other bits and bobs gave them too many choices and in each case they'd made the wrong one!

[Brian]

Nothing new. A good quality "clean" sound is usually able to be tolerable much louder ...

#Apologies but this sounds like a typical sound muppets excuse.

 

Apologies but you've clearly never heard a decent sound system capable of high SPLs without distortion. I have and it's very disconcerting to discover that you can't hold a conversation because the SPL is so high but that you have no concept of how loud the sound is.

[J Pearce]

I’d agree with Brian. I once had a ridiculous overkill amount of Funktion 1 in a venue in Derby and only realised I was hitting 110dB(A) at FOH when I checked the meter.

[sunray]

Apologies but you've clearly never heard a decent sound system capable of high SPLs without distortion. I have and it's very disconcerting to discover that you can't hold a conversation because the SPL is so high but that you have no concept of how loud the sound is.

With respect ...

Remainder of message deleted.

Edited September 14, 2021 by sunray

[Brian]

I’d agree with Brian. I once had a ridiculous overkill amount of Funktion 1 in a venue in Derby and only realised I was hitting 110dB(A) at FOH when I checked the meter.

 

In my case it was a pair of these beauties in a recording studio control room...

 

 

(for a sense of scale, the bass drivers are 12" units)