ECS Cards

[Brian]

Asking for a colleague...

 

they are a freelance sound engineer/AV technician. Recently they've been asked, on a couple of jobs, if they have an ECS card.

 

Now, putting aside the fact that it appears to be yet another money-making scheme that delivers no real benefits, has anyone here applied for and got one?

 

Which one did you go for? And how much of a chore was it to get it?

[Simon Lewis]

There was a a change several years back, where the old cards (almost free with cornflakes) were changed for ones which required demonstration of training or qualification in the specified skills area. Sparkies needed the relevant C&Gs etc.

 

This presented something of a problem for many sound engineers who might not be able to point to recognised awards.

 

The Institute of Sound, Communication and Video Engineers negotiated a scheme where those in membership with the ISCVE and who have taken the ECS Electrical Safety Unit assessment and the ECS Health, Safety and Environmental Assessment can apply to ISCVE for an ECS card (Sound Engineer or AV Engineer).

 

It does cost a bit, but the value is that ISCVE through their evaluation of prior accredited or experiential learning (in granting the appropriate membership grade) effectively validate the qualification aspect that's needed for ECS.

 

There's details here. ISCVE are a good bunch... I'm a member and enjoy their small but effective trade show etc.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Simon Lewis

[sunray]

Asking for a colleague...

 

they are a freelance sound engineer/AV technician. Recently they've been asked, on a couple of jobs, if they have an ECS card.

 

Now, putting aside the fact that it appears to be yet another money-making scheme that delivers no real benefits, has anyone here applied for and got one?

 

Which one did you go for? And how much of a chore was it to get it?

Absolutely correct it is ONLY a money making scheme for the examinars/certifying body.

I've had 4 and they last for 3 years...

All they are is a H&S test on a PC in a training facility, you have to purchase a book containing 300 questions of which 30 questions will be asked on a psuedo random basis and pay for the examination.

 

I went for the ECS panel builder card as my main work was panel builder/wireman, in my limited experience the only difference between the different cards is the question pool. in practice any card is generally accepted by anyone asking to see one. To date mine has had no worthwhile use, other than ticking a box to gain access to sites.

https://www.ecscard.org.uk/card-types look at 'ECS related discipline' and 'Download our guidance'. It may confuse you even more though.

 

My tip is to read the book of questions and learn the answer they are looking for, in many cases the correct answer is in total contradiction to the person job. A classic example being an electrician whose main work in a plant hire centre was PAT and repair of plant, so when he had the question 'What do you do with an electric drill with a damaged cable?' he chose the answer 'Repair it' as that is his job. Of course the only acceptable answer is 'Don't use it & send for repair'.

 

[ANDYLASER]

Sounds like a right load of guff.

I wonder what would happen if everyone in the industry refused to be "blackmailed" into paying for a useless card.

I guess I could always "argue" they dont do one for laser technicians. :)

[themadhippy]

I wonder what would happen if everyone in the industry refused to be "blackmailed" into paying for a useless card.

Mp's would be lobbied,brown envelopes change hands and a new law introduced making them compulsory.

[Simon Lewis]

In theory, having some form of proof of skills might not be too bad a thing....

 

The broader scheme, Construction Skills Certification Scheme is meant to show that you are trained / qualified for the level of work being done on a construction site.

 

The Electrotechnical Certificate Scheme takes care of the electrical trades, and is the nearest that we are likely to get for our AV type work, where we need to work on new builds - hence the ISCVE's welcome involvement in this area.

 

It may well be viewed as a money making setup, useless etc. but I'd argue there's at least some merit in this, in allowing skills to be verified. It's pretty standard for fork lift and telehandler ops to need to prove they are trained before just driving off 5 tons of machine on a festival site.

 

Obviously, it's possible to blag or sidestep these things, and the level of knowledge required for some assessments is quite low, and they tend to stick to fixed formulaic assessments, but hey - perhaps a step in the the right direction?

 

That said, I'm not the greatest fan of the way in which most of these card schemes are delivered...

[Simon Lewis]

] Edited July 2, 2021 by Simon Lewis

[sunray]

In theory, having some form of proof of skills might not be too bad a thing....

 

The broader scheme, Construction Skills Certification Scheme is meant to show that you are trained / qualified for the level of work being done on a construction site.

 

The Electrotechnical Certificate Scheme takes care of the electrical trades, and is the nearest that we are likely to get for our AV type work, where we need to work on new builds - hence the ISCVE's welcome involvement in this area.

 

It may well be viewed as a money making setup, useless etc. but I'd argue there's at least some merit in this, in allowing skills to be verified. It's pretty standard for fork lift and telehandler ops to need to prove they are trained before just driving off 5 tons of machine on a festival site.

 

Obviously, it's possible to blag or sidestep these things, and the level of knowledge required for some assessments is quite low, and they tend to stick to fixed formulaic assessments, but hey - perhaps a step in the the right direction?

 

That said, I'm not the greatest fan of the way in which most of these card schemes are delivered...

What proof skills?

The first ECS card I needed for a site was 2007 I think. I found out about it on a Wednesday for the following Monday so started making phone calls. I was told there is a centre in SE London, IIRC Shooters Hill and advised they'd be able to sell me the book of questions and make the booking for the test but it would have to be cash, usually done by post in those days. I turned up, they told me they are unable to supply book or book the test, discussions and phone calls took place and eventually a very obvious second hand book was found. the test was booked for the Friday and the booking form required a confirmation I had 10 clear days to read and understand the book. I asked if the card could be issued on the day as I needed it for the Monday and they confirmed they could.

 

 

I had no qualifications to offer and as SE I had no employer to back me up. I went home and put in about 6 hours to read the book, highligh the questions to be careful of etc. and turned up, 45 hours after getting the book, to sit my test.

Half hour to make 30 choices on a laptop. I did the whole lot, went back over it to double check and then triple check that took 8 minutes. I submited the test and the examiner looked up from her computer with a start, looked back athe computer then gave me a thumbs up and gestured for me to leave the room.

 

Back at reception I was advised I had passed but would have to wait for everyone to finish before they could process all of the results and she made me a coffee form the staff facilities. I had a 20 minute chat with her about the scheme which at that point I still knew nothing about. then the other 11 candidates came from the room discussing the questions they'd all been allocated and I was asked if I couldn't complete the test.

IIRC we had to get 26 correct to pass and all but myself were for renewals, IE they had all been through the process before; 4 fails and only 2 got all 30 correct, I was one of those.

So to summerise; I had 2 days notice and had to sign to say I'd had the book for 10 days, I did a 30 minute test in 8 minutes and got 100% right, I had no qualifications relevant to the trade... Should I have any confidence in the system?

 

I returned there 3 years later and to another centre for the next 2. My last expired 2 years ago having never been shown to anyone. Over the 12 years I may have used it 10 times but I doubt it's that many.

Edited July 2, 2021 by sunray

[Simon Lewis]

I think there's little doubt that the H&S assessment is pretty basic, and often simply requires the selection of one obvious answer from a pack of four.

However, as mentioned earlier, the CSCS scheme (and I believe ECS) has and continues to move away from the situation of virtually meaningless cards handed out with little fuss (e.g. this article).

 

 

I'm not really trying to champion these schemes and it can be annoying when you are trying to access a building site and have to produce credentials, but I believe the intent is good and that (hopefully) standards will improve.

[sunray]

I think there's little doubt that the H&S assessment is pretty basic, and often simply requires the selection of one obvious answer from a pack of four.

However, as mentioned earlier, the CSCS scheme (and I believe ECS) has and continues to move away from the situation of virtually meaningless cards handed out with little fuss (e.g. this article).

 

 

I'm not really trying to champion these schemes and it can be annoying when you are trying to access a building site and have to produce credentials, but I believe the intent is good and that (hopefully) standards will improve.

I'm very pleased to see that things are changing, as it was the card was a waste of everybody's resoruces, however that article now states a minimum qualification of NVQ2, I don't even know what one of those is and at my age I have no intention of finding out either. That aside how does one get a qualification when one doesn't exist for your occupation?

[Simon Lewis]

I don't even know what one of those is and at my age I have no intention of finding out either. That aside how does one get a qualification when one doesn't exist for your occupation?

 

That is where ISCVE stepped in.... They already have a fairly robust process for determining member grades, recognising both formal and experiential learning, so they are able to issue (after joining ISCVE, completing H&S assessments and paying card fees) an ECS card for AV and sound engineering disciplines. They ascertain and vouch for the candidate's learning and experience level.

[sunray]

I don't even know what one of those is and at my age I have no intention of finding out either. That aside how does one get a qualification when one doesn't exist for your occupation?

 

That is where ISCVE stepped in.... They already have a fairly robust process for determining member grades, recognising both formal and experiential learning, so they are able to issue (after joining ISCVE, completing H&S assessments and paying card fees) an ECS card for AV and sound engineering disciplines. They ascertain and vouch for the candidate's learning and experience level.

Now I haven't made any moves to this end but I wonder how they'd assertain my experience of mostly village fetes etc with intermittant AV and nightclub installations where pretty much all the companies I've worked for (as a subby) no longer exist and most of the bosses no longer with us. This is a realistic question, not negativity and curiosity only as I have not reason to go down this route. Edited July 3, 2021 by sunray

[Junior8]

I'm not really trying to champion these schemes and it can be annoying when you are trying to access a building site and have to produce credentials, but I believe the intent is good and that (hopefully) standards will improve.

 

I hope things have changed now but I would have been a firm supporter of these things even if they were merely a firm reliable ID system only in 1990-1992 when a major building project was taking place in my educational institution while we were still open and we were alarmed when it became clear that in some cases the main contractor had only the haziest idea who some of the subbies were and who was on site at any time. (Mind you this was before the Sion Jenkins case and others which alerted us all to the fact that as staff we had never really had to prove who we were and whether we had the qualifications we claimed.)

 

I hope things aren't as casual these days.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Junior8

[sandall]

(Mind you this was before the Sion Jenkins case and others which alerted us all to the fact that as staff we had never really had to prove who we were and whether we had the qualifications we claimed.)

Not sure how Sion Jenkins fits in here, but can certainly remember a time when site security was almost non-existent & a cheery wave was sufficient ID.

[Junior8]

He was appointed to a deputy headship on the basis of a CV that was, shall we say, enriched. At the time East Sussex County Council issued a statement: "He did not attend the University of Kent and has not obtained a BA (hons) degree, a Post Graduate Certificate in Education, an Advanced Diploma from the Open University or an MSc in Education Management from Kings College London. He did not attend Gordonstoun School. This is the information contained in his application for deputy headmaster."

This case and one other case prior to that which I have forgotten sent my authority into something of a panic and we all had for the first time to prove everything beyond the one thing they could check which was whether you had completed the probationary year. I recall my head at the time when he was handing out the forms saying: "When you think I have got all the way to this job without anybody asking me to at least prove I was who I say I was ... "

I never knew if anything odd came up about anybody as I left the game soon after.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Junior8