Soldering Hell

[cedd]

I own a lovely Weller temperature controlled iron, and it's a complete waste - it's always turned up to full. I'd always much rather go in fast, get a good joint first time and then let the thing cool. In practice I find this far kinder on adjacent components than going in with an iron at the "correct" temperature and spending longer waiting for it to flow.

 

I'll also agree with others and say that I can't do a decent job with lead free. I've been soldering for 20 years and pride myself on being the one in my department that people come to for soldering jobs, but my lead free soldering still needs a lot of work. Thankfully much of our work is repairing older equipment, so lead is still the go-to.

[Keith_]

Hi Folks,

I thought I would tag onto this old thread, rather than starting a new one.

I face making up 12 4mm^2 speaker cables with NTL4FXX solder connectors (IP65 rated) and the few I did in the past were total pigs to get right. Looking for tips if you have any (no pun intended, though recommendations of iron tips will be good).

The problem I find is that there is very little space to get the iron in there with a fat wire in the solder cup and I can get either the cup hot enough, or the wire end, but not both, without also melting the plastic bits. I wish Neutric did these with screw terminals like their ordinary speakons, but I need these STX type for what I am doing.

Any suggestions?

I normally like to use an Iroda pro 120, but maybe it is not the best for this job.

Thanks.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Keith_

[indyld]

2 hours ago, Keith_ said:

Any suggestions?

Sounds like you are using the wrong iron/tip and struggling for heat transfer. A pre-filled solder bucket, decently tinned wire and the right iron/tip should be a quick job especially with 60/40 and perhaps some additional flux if needed.

[DrV]

15 minutes ago, indyld said:

Sounds like you are using the wrong iron/tip and struggling for heat transfer. A pre-filled solder bucket, decently tinned wire and the right iron/tip should be a quick job especially with 60/40 and perhaps some additional flux if needed.

Exactly this. The heat in the bit is what heats the joint. The iron heats the bit, but more slowly. If the bit is not big enough it won't store enough heat to solder the joint. Look for a bit with as much mass as possible then look for one with a shape that will be accurate enough to get to the joint. In that order.

[Keith_]

I agree with both of you and have some other tips on order and will use added flux. I think the iron is powerful enough (allegedly 125W), but probably the 3mm tip has insufficient heat capacity. Of course I have larger tips now, but they don't fit into the work without touching things that ought not to get hot. I saw some potentially useful bent tips that might help, but designed for another (very expensive) make of iron.

I am particularly keen to hear from someone who has specific experience of tacking these Speakons with 4mm wire (otherwise maybe I should ask a brain surgeon to have a go).

[sunray]

4 minutes ago, Keith_ said:

I agree with both of you and have some other tips on order and will use added flux. I think the iron is powerful enough (allegedly 125W), but probably the 3mm tip has insufficient heat capacity. Of course I have larger tips now, but they don't fit into the work without touching things that ought not to get hot. I saw some potentially useful bent tips that might help, but designed for another (very expensive) make of iron.

I am particularly keen to hear from someone who has specific experience of tacking these Speakons with 4mm wire (otherwise maybe I should ask a brain surgeon to have a go).

I've only used a Weller TCP iron with No9 bit about 3mm.

I heavily tin the cup, tin the wire then holding the wire on the bit return to the cup then simply drop the wire into the cup while withdrawing the iron and sliding the wire forwards.

Exactly the same modus operandi as an XLR but bigger and hotter bit

[indyld]

Wattage etc. is bit of a red herring. Something is either hot enough or it isn't. No amount of technique adjustments make up for an iron that can't maintain the right level of heat when applied to the job. 

No idea about the gas iron tbh. My days of struggling with some kind of dumb drinks warmer are behind me. I just know that I can get a lot of heat down and keep it there, even with relatively small tips (for most forum members here) because it's being driven by controlled oomph. 

And JBC tips aren't cheap either. 

e2a: as above, the job is just like a bigger and hotter XLR. Or termination of Socapex. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by indyld

[sunray]

1 hour ago, indyld said:

Wattage etc. is bit of a red herring. Something is either hot enough or it isn't. No amount of technique adjustments make up for an iron that can't maintain the right level of heat when applied to the job. 

yeah very true. BT would put out an invitation to tender for supplies.

Medium soldering iron as an example came from at least 7 suppliers

Adcola 25W- heated very quickly but wouldn't be able to solder 100 tags without a couple of breaks.

Wolf 65W - Took ages to heat up, didn't get particularity hot but then nothing could cool it either Probably not suitable for the plugs in question. (Also supplied a 'Large' version but still  65W with a huge bit, took 20 minutes to melt solder).

Elremco 35W - Heated quickly, could solder continuously, got far too hot, the bit would glow dull red and burn out rapidly. The only one which could solder 15mm copper pipe fittings and car radiators.

Cooper 30W - Medium+ heat time to first use but low heat capacity bit. Would get progressively hotter and romp through bits but once hot could solder constantly

Weller 48W (TCP) -  24V version we all know and love, 50V version never as good and got through elements.

No Name 70W (TC) - Adjustable mechanical thermostat we had to run them on max, constant cycling heated quickly but never hot enough to work on tag blocks and no heat capacity - worked more like the 15W Antex.

Solon 50 or 60W - Rubbish.

But all of those apparently conformed to the BT spec.

[kerry davies]

And then those of us who soldered hundreds of MDF terminations invested in the Weller 140/100W Gun with home-made bits to suit the terminals. Heated up in seconds, transferred heat quickly and generally did the job well. We got the biggest bit available then filed a groove to provide maximum contact.

I liked the later pen-style BT gas soldering irons for light work literally "in the field". But at the end of the day it is personal choice guided by experience, good and bad. 

[indyld]

After a lifetime of having a 25w Antex about the house (and various Wellers etc. on workbenches in other people's premises), I started using the JBC 210 handpiece. See, I told you I meant small... It gets used for a lot of micro work, but is also the main iron for general jobs.

My most used bit for this general use with this handpiece is the second largest chisel in this range, which I think is 2.9mm or something. Still blows through any amount of work, just crank the temp to 420 or so for the bigger stuff.

Never going back tbh. Not suggesting this is a solution here, but the long and short of it is an iron that isn't hot enough... isn't hot enough.

E2A: For comparison to your favourite iron size, there are some photos at the EEVBlog.

Edited November 22, 2023 by indyld

[pmiller056]

My choice would be (my employer's) Weller W101. Big chunky tip that holds lots of heat and can heat a joint quickly before the heat 'runs away' up the wire being soldered. Much lighter and less tiring to use than a 'gun'.

[Keith_]

Thanks folks, this is excellent advice.

Sunray's technique is exactly what I was trying to do (as he said: scaled up version of XLR), but I guess my iron just doesn't have the welly for it. I realise my use of the Iroda gas iron is just a habit built up from field work (old familiar tools etc.) and I need a well controlled electric for the bench.

I would love a JBC station (Indyld), but it is well beyond my means. The review of irons was really useful, Sunray, not so much for the specific models as for explaining the factors determining real world performance. I think the problem with the Iroda is that the tips are quite lightweight and of course there only the crudest of controls (though it is actually rather nice to use: very responsive, like the gas hob in the kitchen).

After a bit of hunting around, I have bought an ATEN ST-80 kit with an assortment of bits. I expect that will get it sorted and will be a good investment (I got from Telonic Instruments - same as Rigol- who offer a better price than CPC).

[indyld]

Never tried the Atten irons but my main hot air station is the commonly used ST-862D and it's the nuts for a cheap unit. Hot air work is like iron soldering, easier with better kit. Hopefully your new kit will be a breeze.

[Keith_]

Happy ending:

New iron kit arrived today. Tried it on 300C - not enough - went up to 380C (I think 400 is max) and suddenly the job was as easy as soldering an XLR. The Atten ST-80 seems pretty competent (though I've only used it for about 20 mins so far). Of the several tips I bought, T900-3C seemed to be the best for this job. So I will be using the Atten on my bench from now on and the Iroda pro 120 can do what it is best at - soldering in the field, up a ladder, on a gantry, in an underfloor crawl space and round the back of the big tent.

[sunray]

58 minutes ago, Keith_ said:

Happy ending:

New iron kit arrived today. Tried it on 300C - not enough - went up to 380C (I think 400 is max) and suddenly the job was as easy as soldering an XLR. The Atten ST-80 seems pretty competent (though I've only used it for about 20 mins so far). Of the several tips I bought, T900-3C seemed to be the best for this job. So I will be using the Atten on my bench from now on and the Iroda pro 120 can do what it is best at - soldering in the field, up a ladder, on a gantry, in an underfloor crawl space and round the back of the big tent.

I've owned and used several gas irons and it always surprised me how many people head for them as a first choice, personally I'm always glad to get back to a 'proper' iron.

Anyway, glad you have it sussed.