Health and Safety

[Just Some Bloke]

I have, just last week, gone through a major H&S audit by the top H&S company bigwigs looking at 24 different aspects of H&S, all in great depth.

 

The main problem we had, and I think many other venues will be able to empathise with this, is 'providing written proof'.

 

Auditor: Do you train people in x?

Me: Yes. We do 'on the job' training where we show them what to do, along with an explanation of why. We show them how to do it, then supervise them doing it, then when they are showing they can do the job properly on their own, we leave them to it.

Auditor: Can you prove you have done this?

Me: Only in that they all do the job properly now

Auditor: Have they signed something to say they have had the training?

Me: No

Auditor: Then that is not good enough

 

Pre-current H&S policies, 'on-the-job' training was seen as acceptable and the fact that no-one had (yet) been hurt was seen as proof that you were doing something right. Now, you don't need to do any training at all; as long as people sign the correct piece of paper then you are seen as doing a good job. One of my staff told me of a previous employer who once a year would put the Risk Assessment folder down on a table and tell all the staff they had to read it thoroughly and sign to say they had done so. He would then go to the Gents and when he came back everyone would have signed. He never had a 'fail' in his H&S audit!

 

I'm not saying one way was right and the other is wrong as both have their flaws, but when I started as a Technical Manager it was more about making sure your staff did a good job of getting the shows on and now it sometimes feels more about getting the right pieces of paper signed.

[J Pearce]

I've seen both these practices first hand.

 

Both are down to poor management/auditing and/or a fear of being prosecuted rather than a desire to follow the law - and as such are consequences of the insurance/claim-blame system, rather than the H&S legislation. Much of H&S training is about avoiding a lawsuit or reputational damage, rather than a desire to see employees and visitors go home in the same shape that they started work with.

Documenting training is best practice, but signing on the line won't mean much in court if it could be shown you were expected to sign having not been given sufficient time/training/resources.

[kerry davies]

As I was coming to the end of my time at BT one of the new breed of graduate numpties found they had no record of my ever having done the initial pole climbing course. Now I was climbing poles before I got to BT then spent 3 years doing nothing much but climb poles then 13 years supervising others climbing poles and 5 years auditing others' safety in climbing poles. I had to spend a fortnight at Bletchley Park with a group of spotty estuarine oiks just to get the tick.

I then "retired".

 

I left to join an events production organisation training non-technical students purely because they could not find anyone in events/theatre in South Wales with any safety training at all 20 years after HASAWA. The "kids" laughed at me when I handed them a paper with a record of that month's training achievements but the boss told them they were all certified which seemed to make them happy.

 

It took 20-25 years from HASAWA, when Pilbrow wrote his book, before safety was taken seriously by anyone in theatre or events and even now there are areas of reluctance. Personally I like to talk about the Health, Safety and WELFARE At Work Act. Important bit often missed out.

[IRW]

I'm not saying one way was right and the other is wrong as both have their flaws, but when I started as a Technical Manager it was more about making sure your staff did a good job of getting the shows on and now it sometimes feels more about getting the right pieces of paper signed.

 

At one of the first venues I worked at (on a casual basis), and indeed the only venue I am still happy to work at on a casual basis (as opposed to for freelance rates), whenever we have any sort of documentation published that we had to read, it is generally emailed out with the instruction to add 30mins/an hour/whatever onto our timesheet for the event it related to, and to reply confirming that we'd read it. Admittedly, we have a pretty trustworthy and tight-knit crew (newcomers don't come along particularly often simply due to the location, and those of us that come from further afield do so because we enjoy working at the venue), but this seems a pretty sensible way of going about it, as it means staff can take in the information without the pressure of the fitup looming, with the likelyhood of the visiting company interrupting by knocking on the door 20 minutes early! Obviously it also means staff come in much more prepared for what they're going to encounter than they might otherwise be.

Edited February 8, 2021 by IRW

[adam2]

I suspect that before the 1974 act and other modern health and safety legistlation, that most "proper theatres" were already reasonably safe.

There were prexisting requirements regarding fire prooffing, safety curtains, exits, emergency lighting and related regulations. Many such regulations were introduced in response to historic theatre disasters.

 

What the 1974 act did was largely to bring other venues up to somewhat similar standards. Circus style events, discos, nightclubs, holiday camps and like places that had previously "slipped through the net" by being "not theatres"

 

The main change IME in theatres was a general requirement for higher standards of staff safety in workshops etc. Previous laws and regulations had primarily focused on ensuring that the assembled public got home safely with less concern about a cleaner, a barman, or a set builder suffering an accident. I recall for instance some very dangerous improvisations being employed to reach and change lamps in houselights.

[Junior8]

What the 1974 act did was largely to bring other venues up to somewhat similar standards. Circus style events, discos, nightclubs, holiday camps and like places that had previously "slipped through the net" by being "not theatres"

 

And, you may be surprised to hear, schools.

 

 

 

[adam2]

Good point, I recall some horribly dangerous practices in schools. School theatre related, and also in metal work classes and science lessons.

About 6 KW of stage lighting being used from a 13 amp plug after replacing the fuse with a solid link.

Resistance dimmers open to touch.

Home made extension leads of very doubtful quailty.

A large school hall with no windows and no emergency lighting of any kind, entertaining in the 1970s power cuts.

 

 

And the primary school that I attended in the 1960s still had open fires for heating, outside toilets, and some gas lights. This school was extended with several prefab class rooms, each with four large wall mounted electric heaters of 3KW loading, each prefab had a 30 amp submain in twin with earth cable draped around the garden. 12 KW of heating and at least 1 KW of lighting on a 30 amp circuit !

 

In my time at secondary school, new science classrooms were built, with new fangled ELCBs on the power circuits. It was interesting to see just how much old science lab equipment instantly tripped these new fangled devices. There was no question of wearing lab coats or even safety glasses for science lessons.

 

Despite some over zealous elf ansafety these days, things HAVE improved considerably, in schools and elswhere.

 

AFAIK, most buildings under government control were exampt from most safety requirements. Waterloo station had no emergency lighting when I was there in a major power failure about 1978. It is a huge area with thousands of people present and many oportunities for accidents in the dark. (the platforms had some lighting from the trains, but the concourse was very dark, being reliant on a few staff with very feeble handlamps) Major railway stations do now require emergency lighting like other public buildings.

[Junior8]

I was working in a school when the first complaints under HSW 1974 were made and the council, not used to the new regime did, as usual, nothing and were most upset when we called a Factory Inspector in who immediately made them spend a fortune! It was an eye opener and stopped the days of make do and mend which councils had implemented up to then.

 

I always assumed some Parliamentary Draughtsman had neglected to include the usual crown exclusions and nobody noticed!

 

 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Junior8

[sunray]

Good point, I recall some horribly dangerous practices in schools. School theatre related, and also in metal work classes and science lessons.

About 6 KW of stage lighting being used from a 13 amp plug after replacing the fuse with a solid link.

Resistance dimmers open to touch.

Home made extension leads of very doubtful quailty.

A large school hall with no windows and no emergency lighting of any kind, entertaining in the 1970s power cuts.

And the primary school that I attended in the 1960s still had open fires for heating, outside toilets, and some gas lights. This school was extended with several prefab class rooms, each with four large wall mounted electric heaters of 3KW loading, each prefab had a 30 amp submain in twin with earth cable draped around the garden. 12 KW of heating and at least 1 KW of lighting on a 30 amp circuit !

In my time at secondary school, new science classrooms were built, with new fangled ELCBs on the power circuits. It was interesting to see just how much old science lab equipment instantly tripped these new fangled devices. There was no question of wearing lab coats or even safety glasses for science lessons.

 

Despite some over zealous elf ansafety these days, things HAVE improved considerably, in schools and elswhere.

 

AFAIK, most buildings under government control were exampt from most safety requirements. Waterloo station had no emergency lighting when I was there in a major power failure about 1978. It is a huge area with thousands of people present and many oportunities for accidents in the dark. (the platforms had some lighting from the trains, but the concourse was very dark, being reliant on a few staff with very feeble handlamps) Major railway stations do now require emergency lighting like other public buildings.

I started at senior school in 1966, we were the first intake to use the new building which housed the assembly hall. The new build included the basic wiring for stage lights, ie 5A round sockets on besa boxes and a massive bundle or red/black 3/0.029 singles hanging from a roof girder. and a pyro with isolator on 29A fuse supply. By the time I reached 3rd year a Junior8 and 6x6" trunking had been installed by a teacher and 8 flexes from stuffing glands with 5A plugs. However there were a couple of dozen unterminated circuits, My Father did a deal with a local wholesaler for a big discount and supplied the remaing glands, 5A plugs and roll of cable for the rest, I then sat there after school and installed them. After that the woodwork department constructed the frame and board for a 6 channel switchboard which I populated with switches and sockets. I made up some extention leads with the surplus plugs and flex. I don't think anyone ever inspected any of it.

 

Power cuts in the 70's... the old building was on a different substation, one of the teachers borrowed 100m of 4mm² flex which he and I strung across between the buildings and fed into the switchboard arrangemet using 2x 13A plugs a la widowmaker.

 

Our emergency exit signs in the school hall used 2 brick sized 9V batteries which only lasted 2 hours.

 

I shudder to think of the mischief we got up to and sincerely hope 99% has been eliminated from schools now.

 

Like in the labs rows and rows of assorted glass jars and bottles on sagging melamine board shelves with contents which are now under COSHH rules. Non insulated brass terminals on pieces of lab equipment running at 240Vac, 2V open topped glass lead acid accumulators being carried between labs in different buildings

 

And let's not forget the 20 tread step ladders from which I removed ceiling tiles and assisted a teacher to make mounting arrangements to support lighting bars.

 

Pillar drills, bench grinders, lathes etc without any safety guards, chisels, saws etc hanging in racks & cupboards with no protection. Forge/anvils etc with no PPE other than a cotton apron.

 

The thought of my children being at the same risks gives me the shivers [enen more than the covid jab yesterday].

 

I was with BT in '74 but I think it was a number of years before we started adopting H&S systems and think it may very well have been up to 10 years before having to conform.

 

[Junior8]

The reason we called them in first was due to the heating of temporary classrooms with heavy oil burning stoves which were never serviced and the classroom ceilings were covered in soot. The action taken by HSE then really spelled the end for temporary classrooms of the Terrapin type in my area as he condemned them for all sorts of other reasons too and within five years they were all gone. They were demolished by the simple expedient of pushing the walls in and then four blokes with sledgehammers simultaneously belting the corner posts until they collapsed! Edited February 15, 2021 by Junior8

[paulears]

Fred joined, asked a question and then apart from a visit a few days back - never even posted a response - I suspect we've all rather wasted our time.

[Gerry]

Probably it is now past the deadline for him to hand in his homework assignment.

Cheers

Gerry

[Junior8]

Interesting chat though.

 

I wonder what marks we got?

[sunray]

O yes da fings wot wos sew mutch betta b4 fings was danjras

[Ynot]

I was with BT in '74 but I think it was a number of years before we started adopting H&S systems and think it may very well have been up to 10 years before having to conform.

I joined BT (Sorry - PO Telecoms then) in '78 and our apprentice courses were full of safety training - ESG (Engineering Safety Guide), to name one, as well as some quite graphic videos they showed - most notable was the screwdriver inst No 1 through the palm of the hand..... :o