Fog machines. The new antiviral "thing".

[bigclive]

While researching some of the disinfecting foggers used in cars and also implied for use in buildings, I spotted a shady trend going on.

People are selling highly marked-up cheap disco fog machines that come with a 1 litre bottle of fog fluid, along with a 5l bottle of disinfectant with the instructions to mix them in a ratio of 50/50, or with some it's 100ml fog fluid per 250ml disinfectant.

 

I bought a unit from eBay specifically aimed at sanitising and internally it's just a standard smoke machine core with a timer and option to run the pump while cold to purge through cleaner. It has a very small 100ml bottle designed to hold enough sanitiser for a 5 minute fogging. The core temperature thermostat is 260C. (Which was higher than I expected.)

 

I see that Antari have also got into the business with what looks like fairly standard units at a pandemic price (do they operate at a different temperature?) and a very secretive fluid at an eyebrow raising price of $99 for 500ml.

 

Many of these fluids seem to be using benzalkonium chloride based disinfectant at a very low dilution (possibly as low as 0.01%)

Some may be using thymol or variants (a natural plant biocide)

 

I can't help feeling that these are largely a drama thing. Although the aforementioned agents are very potent at killing everything from bacteria to mould.

 

I'm not going to suggest making your own sanitizing fog fluid, as that carries high liability. But I would suggest that if anyone does use these in your venue, that you avoid hanging about in the fog and give it plenty of time to clear. Neither of the suspected biocidal ingredients are good to breathe a lot of, even at the low concentration.

 

I just dug deep and the antari thing seems to be connected with a taiwanese company called airguard with the main active ingredient of Isopropyl Methylphenol (thymol). They have rebadged some Antari units. It would be interesting to see if the heater core temperature is different.

[Ynot]

Hmmm...

 

There still seem to be conflicting opinions about whether any of these fogger based solutions' actually have any lasting benefit....

[DrV]

There was an item on BBC London news last night about the Piano Works in Farringdon who have a misting system containing chlorine dioxide. They said they were only requiring people to stand in the misting tunnel for 5 seconds but from the reaction of their sample punter it looked pretty unpleasant. Can't find any reference on line unfortunately.

[musht]

Surely must be Material Safety Data Sheets, MSDS, for the fluids?

[Stuart91]

I was talking to someone who is involved in fitting out pub interiors. Apparently some companies in our area have been charging ~£200 a time to saturate the premises with "antiviral" fog, and are recommending it's done on a regular basis.

 

What's worrying is that it might give people a false sense of security - why bother scrubbing the place if the magic fog will kill all the nasties?

[ImagineerTom]

Hmmm... ™

 

There still seem to be conflicting opinions about whether any of these fogger based solutions' actually have any lasting benefit....

 

There isn't....

 

They're great (and widely used) on hotel rooms / cruise ships to stop contamination from one occupant to the next but that is the only protection they offer. As soon as a breathing human comes in shedding bacteria and virus all over the place their effectiveness ends - likewise as soon as any "fogged" surface is cleaned/wiped/condensation the protection goes and high traffic areas (door knobs for instance) again get wiped pretty quickly from usage. Above all they ONLY clear the air at the point of fogging; someone infected walking into a previously fogged room and just breathing heavily will fill the room with infection quite quickly.

 

If they're used to isolate between one occupant and the next they have some use; as soon as more than one occupant/bubble uses the space between fogging they become expensive safety theatre.

 

At best (if used daily) they could be used to provide insulation between an outbreak on different nights - ie if there's an outbreak in tuesdays audience then fogging a venue would probably class as a reasonable way to ensure that no-one visiting on Wednesday would be at risk from Tuesday's infection and so performances could continue but that also depends on ensuring that the people doing the fogging know how to do it properly.

[dbuckley]

I can't help feeling that these are largely a drama thing.

 

Yes, yes, of course it is, it's a fog machine.

[Ynot]

Actually Tom that does in fact go towards the conflicts I've been hearing.

 

ie in that yes they CAN be used to disinfect an area but no they are (like any MOT) valid only on the day of treatment. Or, as you say, the second the treatment is done, and someone potentially infected moves into the area.

 

And I'd agree that to have ANY effect whatsoever in the theatre environs, it would have to be done daily, so that would be something else to add to the spiraling costs for venues, contributing once again to the things that make a venue less financially viable ....

:(

 

 

 

[Jivemaster]

Part of it is the visible making a show of cleaning the air for a crowd who accept machine made smoke. Even if the fluid sold for the job is sanitising, that old bottle of disco fog fluid is much cheaper and will look just the same.

 

I would probably look at the Purified Air (Romford) products, they offer an ozone injection system generating ozone and injecting it into the main air con flow, and they do a range of UVC sanitising units to be built into air handling units. BUT these depend on someone having thought of air con first before you can modify it.

www.purifiedair.com

[Dj Dunc]

My workplace buys a lot of products of a wholesaler called Wilkinson Star. They are now massively pushing a Viro-Tech product which I believe is based on Ozone. From what I've watched of Clive's videos on the subject of UV and ozone tubes etc, I've definitely raised a few eyebrows at this until otherwise told by people like Clive that it isn't completely crazy.

 

https://www.viro-tech.info/

[bigclive]

There was an item on BBC London news last night about the Piano Works in Farringdon who have a misting system containing chlorine dioxide. They said they were only requiring people to stand in the misting tunnel for 5 seconds but from the reaction of their sample punter it looked pretty unpleasant. Can't find any reference on line unfortunately.

 

The FDA has this to say about Chlorine dioxide:-

 

"Chlorine dioxide products have not been shown to be safe and effective for any use, including COVID-19, but these products continue to be sold as a remedy for treating autism, cancer, HIV/AIDS, hepatitis and flu, among other conditions, despite their harmful effects."

 

My workplace buys a lot of products of a wholesaler called Wilkinson Star. They are now massively pushing a Viro-Tech product which I believe is based on Ozone. From what I've watched of Clive's videos on the subject of UV and ozone tubes etc, I've definitely raised a few eyebrows at this until otherwise told by people like Clive that it isn't completely crazy.

 

https://www.viro-tech.info/

 

The food industry uses low level ozone generators for large area hygiene improvement. Ozone is safe at natural levels in the region of 0.04 parts per million, but at around 0.1 PPM when you can start smelling it, it becomes an irritant.

 

Surely must be Material Safety Data Sheets, MSDS, for the fluids?

 

There are. But they tend to be very cryptic, with the Antari one being the worst until I found an "updated" one in a different country where they do actually make them declare everything instead of defeating the whole point of the MSDS system by stating "secret proprietary formula".

 

They often hide the ingredients behind trade names and vague chemical groups.

 

I can't help feeling that these are largely a drama thing.

 

Yes, yes, of course it is, it's a fog machine.

 

No. It's not just ANY old fog machine. It has a sticker on the side that says BIO CLEANSE hygiene-o-fogger.

Just because it looks like a cheap eBay £20 (including P&P) smoke machine of dubious electrical standards, with a sticker on the side doesn't mean it IS a £20 (including P&P) smoke machine.

[adam2]

Both ozone and UV-C are of proven effectiveness but are far from a magic cure. Both are dangerous if misapplied, and ineffective in some conditions.

 

Alleged anti viral fog MIGHT work but I would be very doubtful indeed about most such products, especially from on-line suppliers of doubtful reputation.

 

Chlorine dioxide is an effective sterilising compound, but is very toxic and damaging to furnishings.

 

I doubt that any such product cures AIDS, hepatitis, impotence, autism, cancer, or poor exam results.

 

 

 

[bigclive]

My workplace buys a lot of products of a wholesaler called Wilkinson Star. They are now massively pushing a Viro-Tech product which I believe is based on Ozone. From what I've watched of Clive's videos on the subject of UV and ozone tubes etc, I've definitely raised a few eyebrows at this until otherwise told by people like Clive that it isn't completely crazy.

 

https://www.viro-tech.info/

 

I'll translate their hype for you.

 

The purification plate is an ozone generator plate. It sounds like the type with stainless steel mesh on either side of glass or ceramic.

The "PCO cell" is probably a UVC light photocatalytically activating a layer of titanium dioxide to create "hydroxyl radicals". That's a controversial area.

The ioniser is a simple needle point ioniser that will help with precipitation of dust and bacteria electrostatically.

 

It does look like they're keeping the ambient ozone level quite low when the unit is in occupied room mode. The higher ozone output in unoccupied area mode will definitely have a useful effect.

 

A local catering company was touting a unit that is basically a fan with an ozone generating UVC U-tube. The units were sized to the area with bigger tubes in larger areas. They had colour coded tubes supplied with a "backup battery" that is used to monitor tube life by discharging the battery at a fixed current when the tube is being used, until the voltage reaches the "replace tube" level.

[Junior8]

We'll be going back to Flit next...

[marktownend]

Link to BBC article

 

Not sure if this used a fog machine, but at least Trading Standards in Cambridgeshire can see it's theatre...