'Remote' Sound mixing

[sclg]

A bit of advice please...Our small (150 capacity), volunteer-run theatre has the sound & light rooms at the back of the auditorium. As the theatre is fully raked, they are separate because the rear auditorium exit runs between them.Each has a hole into the auditorium of about 3' x 4'. The lighting room one has a double glazed window in it but the sound room one is - for obvious reasons - open.Moving forward to when we can re-open, we reckon we cannot leave the sound room window open. Not only is there the back row of the audience immediately in front of it, but also all the air in the auditorium tends to vent through into the sound room!

If we double-glaze over the hole, what's the best approach to hearing what is going on in the auditorium well enough to balance sound? (We are only talking straight plays with SFX and occasional musicals with a max of a dozen radio mics.)Inside the sound room we could either use headphones or small monitors but I'm not sure about mics in the auditorium - how many, what sort, where, etc.Any advice appreciated.Thanks

 

[sandall]

Our theatre, which has a deep thrust & a fairly wide main (proscenium) stage, either or both of which may be used, depending on the production. The assisted-hearing system uses 2 pairs of short-shotgun (Sennheiser ME80) mics at grid-height. Our combined control-room is in a similar location to yours. In rehearsal we run windows-open, but as any chatter can be heard in the house it has to be windows-closed for performance. The monitor speakers are more-or-less in front of the top corners of the sound window.

 

Listening to the appropriate pair of mics at the right level gives a surprisingly close approximation to what the audience is hearing & what comes through the open window, even on amplified shows (though these are normally mixed FoH). An output of the gun-mic mixer is patched into a stereo return on the main mixer, labelled "show-relay".

[david.elsbury]

It’s really not recommended however you might find you need to increase your rehearsal time, to allow changes in level to be tried out and noted down, changed, noted down etc.

also you might struggle a bit when you get a full house in because often you need to adjust the levels once your audience is in

 

The best solution to chatter from the booth being heard is not to chatter ;) that’s the professional approach

[Lamplighter]

Ian

How far back from the stage are these mics and how far spaced from the centre line?

Brian

[sclg]

Our theatre, which has a deep thrust & a fairly wide main (proscenium) stage, either or both of which may be used, depending on the production. The assisted-hearing system uses 2 pairs of short-shotgun (Sennheiser ME80) mics at grid-height. Our combined control-room is in a similar location to yours. In rehearsal we run windows-open, but as any chatter can be heard in the house it has to be windows-closed for performance. The monitor speakers are more-or-less in front of the top corners of the sound window.

Listening to the appropriate pair of mics at the right level gives a surprisingly close approximation to what the audience is hearing & what comes through the open window, even on amplified shows (though these are normally mixed FoH). An output of the gun-mic mixer is patched into a stereo return on the main mixer, labelled "show-relay".

Thanks. Any idea what's currently available that's like SE80s?Steve

 

[Dave m]

If the existing system works, why change anything?Assuming that you fill half the theatre, one sound operator's breath is hardly a risk? You could have a partial Perspex screen that stopped line of sight (breath) to the sound roomPresumably the sound op and audience are facing the same way?

I have worked in completely sealed control rooms, ones with sliding windows and on a balcony and a balcony beats a room most of the time.Could you have a low velocity fan to prevent the audience venting into the box?Wear a mask?

[sclg]

If the existing system works, why change anything?Assuming that you fill half the theatre, one sound operator's breath is hardly a risk? You could have a partial Perspex screen that stopped line of sight (breath) to the sound roomPresumably the sound op and audience are facing the same way?

I have worked in completely sealed control rooms, ones with sliding windows and on a balcony and a balcony beats a room most of the time.Could you have a low velocity fan to prevent the audience venting into the box?Wear a mask?

Fair point but bear in mind most volunteer techs are in the more vulnerable age group and less willing to take risks!

There is no danger to the punters from the sound op (I.e me) but there's no realistic way to stop the airflow from the auditorium through the window and being over 70 and with chronic heart disease, there's no way I'm willing to take the risk!!

It's a real problem in amateur/volunteer theatre. 3 of our 4 lighting people are over 60, both the sound people and 90% of the stage crew!

S

 

[cedd]

Does it have to be glass? To stop the air movement all you need is a single layer of something. Could be cling film! If you can find something thin, clear and watertight then the virus isn't going to get through it, but sound will. The cling film suggestion was slightly tongue in cheek, but there are clear materials available to buy that would be similarly effective but more robust.

You may find some small differences in the way it sounds, but I'd bet it'll still be closer than mixing via monitor speakers.

[kerry davies]

I know your space and it is very much a box but why is it venting through the back of the audience? If you are worried about infection then all it takes is for one person in the front row to be a carrier and it wafts all over everyone. That poor ventilation is the problem not the subsequent sound control difficulty. Fix the ventilation and there is no sound problem.

 

As a temporary fix without spending money, always a plus for non-funded venues, Cedd has made the most sensible suggestion.

[sandall]

David e - most of the "chatter" is sound & lx exchanging notes - difficult to avoid, even on cans.

 

Brian - both pairs are 24' apart & 20' up (that's how the original steelwork worked), IIRC over the equivalent of about Row C & angled about 30 degrees down & about 15 degrees in (basically aimed at DSC mouths).

 

Steve - when they went in the Sennheisers were at the "budget" end of available gun-mics (like the AKG C451/CK8 before them); "professional" ones cost thousands. This was before the days of Audio-Technica. I'm not sure what the modern equivalent would be (I'm still using my ME80s & CK8s), but the AT897 is possibly the nearest. Avoid "camera mics" & Chinese "budget" stuff.

 

Dave m - Masks do NOT (repeat ad infinitum) protect YOU - they protect other people FROM you (maybe, a bit). The fact that older people (myself included) are much more at risk of ending up in an ICU if they contract Covid doesn't make them any more or less likely to infect others.

 

Chris - never tried cling film :), but my experience of anything rigid is that you lose all sense of levels. Kerry's point about ventilation is why theatres are going to find it difficult to open in any meaningful way until there is a proven vaccine. In small venues someone opens an outside door & there is an instant flow of air.

[djw1981]

If the existing system works, why change anything?Assuming that you fill half the theatre, one sound operator's breath is hardly a risk? You could have a partial Perspex screen that stopped line of sight (breath) to the sound roomPresumably the sound op and audience are facing the same way?

I have worked in completely sealed control rooms, ones with sliding windows and on a balcony and a balcony beats a room most of the time.Could you have a low velocity fan to prevent the audience venting into the box?Wear a mask?

Fair point but bear in mind most volunteer techs are in the more vulnerable age group and less willing to take risks!

There is no danger to the punters from the sound op (I.e me) but there's no realistic way to stop the airflow from the auditorium through the window and being over 70 and with chronic heart disease, there's no way I'm willing to take the risk!!

It's a real problem in amateur/volunteer theatre. 3 of our 4 lighting people are over 60, both the sound people and 90% of the stage crew!

S

Sounds like you need to sort the airflow / ventilation path! First step of risk management is avoid not mitigate the effect?

If the audience are facing away from you, and more than 2 metres away, what increased risk do you perceive?

[Brian]

Has anyone ever tried a dummy head mic arrangement fed into cans for remote audio monitoring

[sandall]

Has anyone ever tried a dummy head mic arrangement fed into cans for remote audio monitoring

I remember many years ago our geeks being really into dummy-heads & ambisonics, but the interest faded away (no pun intended). Not sure about a dummy-head for show-relay though. Apart from working out how & where to locate it wouldn't there be a risk of you balancing your sound for a single point in the house?

Edited June 23, 2020 by sandall

[Dave m]

Why are sound and LX exchanging notes? Don't you rehearse?

Some theatres are set up with no ability to see/hear each other and although talkback is available, the crew listen to cues rather than chat. Some talkback can include cue lights or just go back to traditional cue lights that predate talkback? Your're normally best off with PPT cans anyway but you can acknowledge on cans by tapping the mic or just tutting

It sound more like you're trying to mitigate the issue for one staff member yet still allow the poor ventilation to exist?Even if the air HAS to move through an existing hole in the building, can't you add ducting so that any airflow enters a duct in the auditorium and routes through but not into the control room?

I have been in sealed control rooms and one issue is getting a real idea of how load the monitors are v the auditoriumIt's easy for control room monitors to sound good while the auditorium is either too loud or quiet

[sclg]

Sounds like you need to sort the airflow / ventilation path! First step of risk management is avoid not mitigate the effect?

If the audience are facing away from you, and more than 2 metres away, what increased risk do you perceive?

I'd agree that the airflow is the problem. The increased risk is because of the airflow over the audience coming into the sound room. There have been spreading problems due to airflows like this - see My linkhttps://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them

Ideally you'd need some positive pressure in the sound room to keep the flow the other way. Fans from the outside, etc are all possible but, to be honest, much more complex in our situation than the window approach.(... and before anyone suggests it, I've tried farting a lot but keeping it up for three hours is pushing it, even for me )