Antiviral fog could get concerts and theatres going again?

[sandall]

The current best plan is to properly wear a plain surgical mask. If all people are wearing masks the probability of passing on an infection falls to about 5% of the unmasked rate. Currently plain surgical masks are about £1 each.

Indeed, though the likelihood of any infection being life-threatening is far, far higher for people of my age (which is why people are asked to wear masks...…..). But...…. up to a week or so ago in my local minimarket/newsagent the staff wore masks & gloves, the customers mostly made some effort at distancing & many wore masks. This morning I was the only mask-wearer & none of the other customers were paying even lip-service to any sort of distancing. Even in our big supermarket masks have now become a rarity for both customers & staff. In 2 recent off-peak tube journeys half of the other passengers in my section of carriage had no sort of face-covering (despite the threat of a £100 fine); the other half had their masks pulled down to only cover their mouths. Whatever happened to "Save lives, protect the NHS" ??

 

By contrast hospitals have at last moved in the opposite direction - masks are now mandatory, you don't get through a door without being greeted by yet another hand-sanitiser pump, & you don't get into a waiting-room without having your temperature checked.

[alistermorton]

I see a lot of people wearing surgical masks over their mouth but nowhere near their nose, completely negating the point of wearing a mask.

[Jivemaster]

Currently the plain surgical mask is still the best protection for the wearer available whether others are mis-wearing them or not. Masks cost about £1 but can be sanitised overnight in weak bleach in water for several reuses -just don't pull the ear loops off! Masks with vent valves are no good because they protect the wearer from disease BUT let the wearer blow straight out potentially infecting others. The aim of a mask is to collect the wearer's bio on the inside and the surrounding bio on the outside, then dispose or destroy all the bio.

 

Currently the most infected group is the young adult age range, and they will probably be back at work after a rave, infectious, pre or non symptomatic, but deadly to those over 40.

[david.elsbury]

I see a lot of people wearing surgical masks over their mouth but nowhere near their nose, completely negating the point of wearing a mask.

Well no; the point of wearing a mask is to stop you spreading droplets. Which will come from the mouth. They aren’t doing anything to stop droplets from being breathed in (or indeed bring transferred it the droplet lands on the mask itself)

[Ynot]

One of the biggest risks I see to theatres (and other close-seated venues) is the fact that because - let's face it - wearing any mask isn't pleasant, sitting in a closed auditorium for up to 3 hours is going to either put the punters off coming completely or result in many of them removing the mask at some point during a performance. Neither situation helps. And of course whilst it would in theory be the FoH team's responsibility to police the audience it would be far more difficult than monitoring the odd person taking photos/videos on their phones..

 

I have mental visions of Hodges from Dad's Army, but instead of 'light out' it would be "'ere, you - put that mask on! And you - and YOU over there in the pink...!"

[sandall]

Currently the plain surgical mask is still the best protection for the wearer available whether others are mis-wearing them or not.

I am totally gobsmacked that 4 months into the pandemic people still seem to believe this. Wearing a mask does not protect YOU; what it does do is potentially reduces the amount of "nasty" you pass on to those around you if you are infected, but are not (yet) self-isolating, but as Alister says, leaving your nose uncovered largely negates the effect.

 

Currently the most infected group is the young adult age range, and they will probably be back at work after a rave, infectious, pre or non symptomatic, but deadly to those over 40.

Yup, "Save Lives" is now about as relevant to the majority of the population as "Dig for Victory" or "Your Country needs You"

 

Re Ynot's point - while the police are incapable of controlling groups before they become unmanageably large, & my GPs can't even persuade their receptionists to wear masks, the average steward really wouldn't stand a chance.

[bigclive]

The level of ozone in the air for a germicidal effect is a tiny fraction of the level required for odour removal. Literally at a level you can't even smell it. It's used in some food processing plants to reduce the risk of airborne contamination and to increase shelf life.

 

For the "everything causes cancer" brigade, ozone is a naturally occurring component of outdoor air at an ambient level of around 0.04ppm and can be detected by nose at around 0.1ppm, which is the point it's considered to be at an undesirable level.

 

But even if you did try to introduce measures like controlled ozonation, glycol dispersion, spacing or masks - you'd still be doing a large scale experiment in cross infection between large groups of people.

[ImagineerTom]

There's no point even starting down these paths - traditional venues in Asia looked at this 3 months ago and never got it off the ground, a couple of circus's in central europe kicked it about to try and find a solution 2 months ago; all of them gave up because every way they looked at it it didn't matter how much you santised physical things with magic light or magic fog it only takes one infected person to steady themselves using the banister / handrail or to cheer loudly and you've instantly put a couple of hundred people (who were told the magic technology made them safe) to be exposed and at risk.

 

There's no mystery or investigation to be done as to what process's are the best available; the research is complete, there's literally a billion people taking part in the experiment and establishing that washing hands, a bit of distance and a $1 face mask provides safety levels hundreds of times higher than any technology has managed.

[Stuart91]

There's no mystery or investigation to be done as to what process's are the best available; the research is complete, there's literally a billion people taking part in the experiment and establishing that washing hands, a bit of distance and a $1 face mask provides safety levels hundreds of times higher than any technology has managed.

 

Well put, Tom.

 

So is there any sort of solution for traditionally laid out venues? 2m spacing just doesn't add up economically, does everything stay dark until there's a vaccine?

 

I've spent a fair bit of time fielding enquiries about drive-in events that weren't adding up. (~£80 per car being typical) but I can completely appreciate people's desire to get something happening again. The search for a magic technical solution is perhaps clutching at straws, but it's hard to fault the motivation behind it.

[ImagineerTom]

Theatre on the old model won’t be back on mass scale until at least next spring (and even that depends more on public confidence than realities of treatment or venue modifications), events with some level of distancing, hand sanitiser and thought about pinch points will start happening from late August. In Asia the WORST social distancing layout for internal venues is blocking out alternate rows then insisting people leave one seat between groups; there’s other venues that are using all rows and the one seat gap between groups (based on data that transmission tends to be face to face) and as well reported there are venues that don’t have any reduction / distancing because they have robust test-track-trace schemes.

 

Circus’s across Europe are kicking off now with various levels of distance and layout, lots of open-air events planned for across the summer too - these will provide the test bed / real world data for traditional venues about what actually works physically and what audiences are prepared to do.

 

The big panto operators are not making any public statements until September but are all working on the basis they will have panto this season and that they might have to juggle performance times (doing 3 performances of a 90min panto with reduced capacity instead of 2 performances full house) to get the numbers through the door to make it viable.

[kerry davies]

Some cinemas in Germany were given the go-ahead some weeks ago but hardly any could even write the Risk Assessment. Two out of dozens in Bavaria opened but I don't know if they kept open. One was limiting capacity to 30% in any one of their 5 screens with a total of 100 customers in the whole venue. Even then they split up groups with movable perspex sheets and only used every other row. There wasn't even a vague attempt at being economically viable.

 

Not that any of it matters if audiences do not have total confidence in the safety of attending mass gatherings, they just won't buy a ticket. Just as writing the RA or covering all the insurance angles is essential then so too is persuading the punter they don't risk death for the sake of art or entertainment. We do know that most between the ages of 18 and 35 are basically suicidal as the beach parties and raves confirm, but for theatre and family (panto) audiences it is going to be extremely difficult. Things may change if schools open and there is no second wave so perhaps we just need to ride things out?

 

Tom is doing the right thing IMHO in looking right around the world at what others are trying. As long as experiences are shared there is a chance of finding solutions. Keep talking.

[J Pearce]

There’s a lot of stereotyping of young adults going on in this thread.

I know the under 30s I work with are being sensible and staying within the rules. I also know a house a few doors down that had people of all ages round to celebrate a 70th birthday party in April at the height of the lockdown.

 

Can we quit the lazy caricatures? It’s the Blue Room not a daily rag...

[Jivemaster]

The issue with young adults is that most feel fine and are asymptomatic for the entire course of the disease, so they don't realise that they are spreading the virus because they don't realise they have the virus. BUT they are able to infect their parents (age) who will suffer and their grandparents who may well die.

 

There may also be a few who recklessly go out in groups of hundreds who don't care or realise the likelyhood of becoming infected.

[Ynot]

For the "everything causes cancer" brigade, ozone is a naturally occurring component of outdoor air at an ambient level of around 0.04ppm and can be detected by nose at around 0.1ppm, which is the point it's considered to be at an undesirable level.

Slight tangent - but do laser printer/copiers still give off ozone?

I know the one in my theatre office (right behind where I sit when I'm there) doesn't seem to have that oh-s-familiar odour that I recall from my office dayys on the day job...

 

 

 

 

 

Theatre on the old model won't be back on mass scale until at least next spring (and even that depends more on public confidence than realities of treatment or venue modifications), events with some level of distancing, hand sanitiser and thought about pinch points will start happening from late August.

I can concur with that one. I've got a Teams meeting with trustees and committee tomorrow evening and I'm fairly confident that we will be writing off the rest of this year at a minimum. We host 3 pantos - one for a week in mid Dec, the big one for 14 shows in January then normally a 4-show affair on the last weekend in Jan. However the latter is an NHS jobbie, so my immediate expectation is that those guys will NOT be in any way able to consider that one anyhow. :(

In Asia the WORST social distancing layout for internal venues is blocking out alternate rows then insisting people leave one seat between groups; there's other venues that are using all rows and the one seat gap between groups (based on data that transmission tends to be face to face) and as well reported there are venues that don't have any reduction / distancing because they have robust test-track-trace schemes.

Our online sales site - Ticketsource - has added an option to allow us to specify how many seats to each side of a booking are blocked out automatically and how many in front/behind. As our seats are mostly on 500mm centres if the 2m rule still applies (and I honestly think we should) then that's FOUR seats between groups. and maybe two rows behind etc. I did some test bookings on a dummy show layout and even with just 2 seats min and one row between I think I managed about 35% max with those limits. :( :(

Circus's across Europe are kicking off now with various levels of distance and layout, lots of open-air events planned for across the summer too - these will provide the test bed / real world data for traditional venues about what actually works physically and what audiences are prepared to do.

Which is fine if you're part of a group that has space and available funds to set something like that up. We're right next to a local authority recreation park so plenty of green space to look at but to create a complete performance area with seats, access control, staging, lights & sound even for something as simple as a tribute band or comedians would be a massive undertaking. ONE of the am-dram groups hosted here already does an open air Shakespeare every year - and usually very well attended. But that's all off for this year of course and the venues they 'tour' round have inherent ways in/out already.

The big panto operators are not making any public statements until September but are all working on the basis they will have panto this season and that they might have to juggle performance times (doing 3 performances of a 90min panto with reduced capacity instead of 2 performances full house) to get the numbers through the door to make it viable.

Fortunately for us, whilst panto IS a big season for us, it's not as big an issue here if we lose them as it would be for venues who sponsor the shows themselves. We make money on the longer venue bookings and great bar takings, but it wouldn't kill us if we missed it. But as I say, we're fortunate in that way.

 

 

 

 

[Stuart91]

I received an email this afternoon promoting this system for sanitising the air in a venue. Seems similar to what others have suggested earlier in this thread.

 

How effective it'll be, remains to be seen. But it does at least appear to have been thought through.