Outside Concert Speakers

[Jupton24]

When you have a concert on the stage, with the mixing desk you already have, and the speakers you're going to buy, whose job will it be to set the equipment up, take it down, set up the microphones and mix the levels for the band? Will someone at the school do it or will you be hiring an engineer in for the concerts?

 

Someone at school one of the student tech dept

 

forget the speakers for a minute,first off buy some material to cover all that wood,otherwise the reflections are gonna be a nightmare

 

I can't it was not my opinion I think the school would kill me if I did

 

What are the power arrangements for the stage, James?

 

there are no direct power to the stage. but there is near by buildings with mains plugs. so extension cables would be run. I don't like that as the cable can get very hot as it will be running of one plug

 

How close are the near neighbours to the proposed stage? Maintaining 100dB at 100m means a large noise footprint. Has anyone considered noise and licensing? IMO this would be primary requirement. It's also probably a very valid reason to use a contractor on the first few events to determine what the real noise nuisance to neighbours will be before buying large amounts of kit.

 

the stage is about 60m away from houses the school is quite built up with lots of buildings but this would be more daytime concerts. after talking to the head of the school saying that the noise would be to much if needed to be heard at 100m they now say 60m is fine

 

For 10k, your school or college will almost certainly have a proper process for this kind of project. Usually considered a capital item bid, and if it's approved then there will be probably three firms asked to quote. So the first step is to identify suitable and reliable suppliers WHO HAVE DONE IT BEFORE. You also need a proper specification, and after somebody recommended problematic by modern standards Bose 802s, which have been the Marmite of the audio world for a huge period of time (I'm actually a pro 802 sound person), be aware that anyone recommending a speaker only available second hand, is potty, and out of their depth in modern audio. Is the 10k for just the speakers, speakers and amps, speakers, amps and processing, speakers amps, processing and mixer, or even that lot with some monitors thrown in? Or do you look at the Bishopsound Big systems that for this kind of use could be spot on in terms of value for money - lots of big boxes, not bad performance for the type and cheap!

 

There is also a risk to the teachers, not you. If they specify kit that turns out to be over or under specified, then the powers that be will consider them to have wasted what are normally public funds, and unavailable to other staff. If you get 10k and science or sports don't, and they see your 10K sitting in a store for 90% of the time, they will kick off, and your department have a tarnished reputation and this takes years to recover. Seen it so many times. There is always a barb in the "student technician" title. YOU could become the person who wasted 10K, the teacher who signed it off blaming you. This also happens. One Blue Room member I'm aware of specified a huge clever purchase that never worked. Their teacher had no clue at all - quite normal, and took their advice, and it went t*ts up badly. The big firm who supplied exactly what was asked for got flack because the system never worked, because assumptions were made that meant some of the kit just could not talk to each other. It got quite nasty. He still occasionally gets the comment when people meet him - "OH you were that Blue Room bloke' He is now 33!

 

Ideally, you actually need a consultant who does NOT sell equipment. Real consultants don't - so they're unbiased. If you ask a firm to quote for a broad spec, you will get expensive kit that may be OTT, or disco kit that will sound awful, or the whole range between. You seem to want value for money, but will not be the person who knows what the kit is expected to do, because nobody there can write the spec it sounds. You need to find an outside person, unbiased and experienced. Maybe one of our members can advise in your area if they visit and have a chat with everyone.

 

thank you for that info I will be passing this directly on to the school and I shall see what comes back. the bishop sound big system looks good for the price. I think they would get the Orion 12s or 15s with the beta 15s or 18s I like that they have built in bluetooth so a member of the tech team does not have to be with the speakers at all time. does anyone know of hire companies that rent out the bishop sound equiptment?

 

Completely agree with Paul's advice. Spending such sums for a school might look like good fun, but it's a potential minefield.

 

Whilst not independent consultants, SFL have been mentioned in this thread. The excellently named Matt Sales is a good guy to contact and they are based quite close to you in Reading.

 

Here's a link to their query page.

 

yes agreed I will definatly get a independent consultant to come in to look at the venue. do you know of any independent consultants near Fleet?

[TonyMitchell]

What are the power arrangements for the stage, James?

there are no direct power to the stage. but there is near by buildings with mains plugs. so extension cables would be run. I don't like that as the cable can get very hot as it will be running of one plug

 

James, please stop. You are out of your depth. If the sound equipment is badly specified, the worst outcome is people won't hear the production. If you get the electrical side wrong, the outcome may be life changing/ending.

As indicated by many above, the whole project needs to be evaluated and specified from scratch by paid professionals with the experience, qualifications and insurance to cover their recommendations and installations.

 

Where a permanent outdoor stage structure is being installed, I would expect to find a mains distribution cabinet close-by, for productions to use.

Alternatively, if the stage is close to a building and heavy duty mains cables can be safely routed temporarily to the stage, there may be a suitably sized and IP rated IEC60309 outlet on said building.

 

It worries me you talk of cables getting "very hot" - if you are seeing this within your current activities, you must tell a member of staff immediately.

 

 

 

 

does anyone know of hire companies that rent out the bishop sound equiptment?

 

They don't exist.

Hire companies generally stock tried & tested, industry standard equipment, that is available worldwide and people/companies ask for because they know how it performs - typically L'acoustics, d&b audiotechnik, Nexo, Martin Audio, etc.

The closest you'll get to what you've suggested - but please don't take this as a recommendation because it certainly isn't - would be to look at the various diy speaker building websites, where you'll find lots of very keen (and knowledgeable) hobbyists, who think the answer to everything is to build massive ground stacks and measure the highest SPLs achievable. But the concept of distributed systems is alien to them.

 

 

[Jupton24]

What are the power arrangements for the stage, James?

there are no direct power to the stage. but there is near by buildings with mains plugs. so extension cables would be run. I don't like that as the cable can get very hot as it will be running of one plug

 

James, please stop. You are out of your depth. If the sound equipment is badly specified, the worst outcome is people won't hear the production. If you get the electrical side wrong, the outcome may be life changing/ending.

As indicated by many above, the whole project needs to be evaluated and specified from scratch by paid professionals with the experience, qualifications and insurance to cover their recommendations and installations.

 

Where a permanent outdoor stage structure is being installed, I would expect to find a mains distribution cabinet close-by, for productions to use.

Alternatively, if the stage is close to a building and heavy duty mains cables can be safely routed temporarily to the stage, there may be a suitably sized and IP rated IEC60309 outlet on said building.

 

It worries me you talk of cables getting "very hot" - if you are seeing this within your current activities, you must tell a member of staff immediately.

 

 

 

 

does anyone know of hire companies that rent out the bishop sound equiptment?

 

They don't exist.

Hire companies generally stock tried & tested, industry standard equipment, that is available worldwide and people/companies ask for because they know how it performs - typically L'acoustics, d&b audiotechnik, Nexo, Martin Audio, etc.

 

The closest you'll get to what you've suggested - but please don't take this as a recommendation because it certainly isn't - would be to look at the various diy speaker building websites, where you'll find lots of very keen (and knowledgeable) hobbyists, who think the answer to everything is to build massive ground stacks and measure the highest SPLs achievable. But the concept of distributed systems is alien to them.

 

 

 

Undestood I don't think the school would want DIY speakers but I can ask. I only know this as that I have heard it happening to others at different schools but I have never tried it and will never! I will ask them to see if they can route a cable to the stage for tech use only

Edited July 18, 2019 by Jupton24

[TonyMitchell]

Undestood I don't think the school would want DIY speakers but I can ask.

 

I agree - so forget the bishop thing

 

I will ask them to see if they can route a cable to the stage for tech use only

 

I'll reiterate my previous post - this must involve college staff and an electrician - the college will of course have a regular approved contractor for electrical works.

There are many factors to consider in determining the size and type of cable, how it will be installed, earthing arrangements, etc.

[paulears]

With the current rules, a permanent outside stage could be quite simply, but at a cost, be fitted with some sockets for power that would be safe. The notion of running cables from building to building really is not acceptable any longer. This is the kind of that common sense cannot help.

 

So - is the 10K an entire system with mics, stands, cables, amps, mixers and speakers, or is it something else? electricity could easily eat severely into your budget - but as it's a safety issue, then the school may have a separate budget for this kind of thing - not touching your 10K. Also - is it 10K +VAT, so really 12K? teachers often have no clue as to VAT, so if you are looking on-line, with consumer pricing, your budget may even be higher in real terms.

[MarkBarl]

I think that is it a bit unfair of the staff to dump this on you. There are so many facets to consider and you are neither experienced enugh or paid to take responsability for this. I would be surprised if senior management of the institution are aware that you have been put in this position. My best recomendation would be for you to come up with a recomendation of people or companies that can give professional advice. To this end, I have sent you a PM with details of someone in your area who will be able to give an independent balanced viewpoint that is based in 20+ years in the industry.

[MarkPAman]

1563371148[/url]' post='575514']

The forums own MarkPAMan works for SFL who may also be able to assist.

That's news to me! When are they going to pay me ;)

I'd be very happy to recommend SFL, but I've never worked for them.

I think you mean Mark Payne

 

 

 

 

1563402475[/url]' post='575535']

1563371148[/url]' post='575514']

The forums own MarkPAMan works for SFL who may also be able to assist.

Are you thinking of Mark Payne, username 'Mark Payne'? I believe he stepped back from the running of the company last year. SFL are capable, knowledgeable and Reading based

 

Thanks!

[Jupton24]

I think that is it a bit unfair of the staff to dump this on you. There are so many facets to consider and you are neither experienced enugh or paid to take responsability for this. I would be surprised if senior management of the institution are aware that you have been put in this position. My best recomendation would be for you to come up with a recomendation of people or companies that can give professional advice. To this end, I have sent you a PM with details of someone in your area who will be able to give an independent balanced viewpoint that is based in 20+ years in the industry.

 

I kind of have now but I will get other peoples views on it think the Orion 15s with the beta 18s from bishop sounds. I know right leaving it to me this was given to me on the second to last day of the School year so the school Is currently closed so this would be a September buy/rent/ decision by the head

[kerry davies]

James, call me an old fogey but when Tony writes "stop" he means stop right now and stop completely.

 

extension cables would be run. (Oh bloody hell!) I don't like that as the cable can get very hot as it will be running of one plug (Aaaaarrrggghh!)

 

Just think about what you have written which is now on record. Anyone looking at that following an incident would come down like a ton of bricks on anyone involved. Let the responsible persons take the responsibility that we taxpayers pay them to take.

[Jivemaster]

No competent power on site NO SOUND on site.

 

Go back to square one. Find the true purpose of the venue and find all the hard necessities like power installed by a company approved by the colleges highest authority or even the local/county council. Dodgey mains would be a huge liability issue.

[paulears]

The other issue here is that without doubt, you are not privy to how the school spends money. behind the scenes there will be all sorts of documents and rules laid down for this and in many cases, the purchasing people ignore the teaching staff and treat this like any other purchase. loudspeakers probably mean the local hifi shop gets asked to recommend a system, or because computers have speakers, the IT people get to source the items. This is perfectly normal. It's also very common for students to believe they have a role such as yours, but the school quietly do their own thing and as you are on holiday soon, you may get back in September to a pair of cheap speakers provided by an educational supplier that are simply hopeless, and this is perfectly normal. a year after I left, I spotted a pair of very expensive recording studio monitors sitting on wall brackets in the sports hall with basket ball rips in the cones and the tweeters poked in. Somebody needed speakers. The course had finished so they were re-purposed. Did they know how much they were worth? I doubt it.

[Shez]

It's also worth being aware that many schools and other council run organisations can be restricted as to which suppliers they can use. There's a list of approved suppliers (who've had to jump through ridiculous hoops to get there) and if your preferred supplier isn't on that list, tough. I've seen all manner of silliness (and wasted tax payer's money) caused by goods and services having to be supplied by companies who, for one reason or another, aren't suitable but are on the list and so get the gig.

[Junior8]

In this situation I would always hire. The trouble with sound outside is it is so unpredictable and unique. I can recall situations where it has been dire in the actual concert area but perfect 200 yards down the road. And there is also the issue of nuisance. A couple of years ago a Vintage event including music took place at a historic property three miles north of here as the crow flies and I was thoroughly enjoying the entertainment in my garden! Due to the prevailing winds and the nature of the surrounding landscape the sound was crystal clear. WE simply can't give you advice - you need to get someone who has the experience to some and look and try things out.

 

By the way it is easy to equip yourself with the simple knowledge to know what a rig of equipment is likely to draw in terms of current and so be able to estimate the electrical feed infrastructure for a temporary instal. If you can't do that and are talking about cables getting hot from experience then the others are right. Stop now.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Junior8

[paulears]

hire can be a real problem for education. They have a very odd funding culture - you have running costs, which used to cover books, paper, small items like the coomber audio devices and misc stuff, and then you have capital items. usually all the departments put in bids, and then a committee decide which is flavour of the month - a new catering kitchen, a recording studio, a new beauty sun tan suite etc etc. you ask for a figure, and then get allocated 90% of it. Crafty teachers build in items that can be removed and leave working systems, less on the ball staff ask for exactly what they want and cannot get a working end project. The really stupid thing is that schools and colleges can have a twenty grand project funded, yet cannot afford small things needed to get it going - like a forgotten hard drive, or fluid for a smoke machine - crazy! Very common. Moving light rigs with not money for lamps or servicing so three years later, nothing works. they buy AKG 414 mics and then the idiots drop it, and nobody can find the money to fix it! Funding for a drum studio - which got spent on drums and acoustic panels to make it nice to record in, but no money for soundproofing, so next door a class simply stops when somebody records! All real stuff from the college I worked at. Called in by the principal to sort a problem in another department. A brand new welding workshop kitted out really well. Right next to the library departments silent study areas, who share a plain clockwork wall. The welding people had their chipping station bolted to the wall. 9.01am on it's first day, the library staff rush in and say how long will you be doing that? Er, says the welding tutor, September? They needed some serious work to prevent structure borne noise getting in and out, and no money left.

 

Hire as a problem solver is often impossible because the running budgets simply don't have that kind of money in them. You cannot bid for a hire charge in the future in a capital budget because accountancy wise, there is no asset to go on the register. Educational budgets just cannot deal with sensible business financial practice. I got called in once because I broke the accountancy package when I accidentally made a profit and when the budget became a positive rather than negative figure, it crashed. nobody has expected to be in credit! I was told to never do this again.

[sandall]

You have had a great deal of advice here, much of it excellent & to the point (some rather less so), but having been involved with quite a few school projects over the years I am going to make five predictions -

 

1. All your research will be have been in vain, as the school will buy something totally unsuitable from the local music shop, because the music dept. has an account there & "they've always given us a good deal".

 

2. The totally arbitrary 100m figure will keep coming down till it matches the reality of what has been bought.

 

3. Everyone will agree that the stage needs a dedicated IP-rated, RCD protected, power supply, but it won't have been budgeted for, so you will end up with (unprotected) trailing cables for years to come.

 

4. The acoustics of your "shed" will be awful (ok, I stole this one from other people).

 

5. You were the one who accepted the poisoned chalice, so if it goes pear-shaped it will all have been your fault, but if it all works brilliantly you will be trampled underfoot by those claiming the credit.