X32 audio quality?

[BigYinUK]

Hi all

 

I've just bought an X32 for the band to tour with and was happy with the sound until rehearsal last night.

 

We have the PA set up facing us so we could get an idea what we'll sound like to the audience and the keys player complained that his piano (Alicia Keys via Mac) sounded lifeless.

 

Our noisey had a play about with it unsuccessfully and in the end (to prove what might be wrong) we plugged the passive DI from the Mac straight into the FOH rack bypassing the desk.

 

Much to my surprise, he said "ahh that sounds better". To my ears there wasn't a huge difference but there was a more dynamic, full sound.

 

This worries me - I know the X32 is a budget console but to have this sort of degradation of sound could be a real problem. Its not what I expected to be honest as most folks here say the X32 is a good sounding console.

 

Our engineer said he turned off all the compression etc so it shouldn't be that.

 

Anyone any experience of this, any thoughts?

[Simon Lewis]

I won't comment on the X32, but would suggest that if he plugged a DI output into a crossover or power amp, the DI itself may well have behaved a little differently...

[paulears]

When It's not in use for a week or two, I remove the soundcraft in my studio and swap it for my X32 - I can detect absolutely no difference at all. In most cases,four outputs come from my interface into the mixer, and it is just a convenient way to monitor and route all my sound sources and destinations. So just remove 12 XLRs and the monitor L&R feed, replug them into X32. More going on here, I suspect.

[BigYinUK]

Thank you Paul and Simon - I suspected there might be more going on.

 

I suppose areas to consider are:

 

1. "Effects" with the passive DI box into different loads. I think it was a Radial.

 

2. Multicore issues?

 

3. Was all the dynamics processing on the piano inputs really turned off?

 

One other thing that occurs to me to ask is - do we really need to be using a passive DI box on something with a fairly high signal level over a 30m run?

 

Regards

 

Jon

[MarkPAman]

Have you got any other DI boxes you can experiment with?

[paulears]

Just a thought - but he plugged the passive DI into the FOH rack input? The rack has a mic level input? That sounds a bit odd, surely?

[BigYinUK]

MarkPAman - Yes, I do have several DIs to try although they are all active!

 

paulears - FOH rack is of course line level so the level on our "test" was low, but loud enough to hear what was going on.

 

I think my first test will be to plug his outputs straight into the desk unbalanced (short leads) and have a listen on his HK system he has at his place.

 

One of the problems with this is due to his previous experiences with the X32 he's extremely prejudiced against the desk (and in a way I can't blame him for that). If we can't resolve this, its going to present me with an ongoing problem :(

 

Regards

[Shez]

If he's already prejudiced against the desk, you may need to tackle this one on a more psychological level. Perhaps a "does it sound better like this... or like this?" without telling him what's changed. I suspect he may just be (subconsciously) hearing a detrimental effect when the desk is connected.

 

Back on a technical level, it's not just channel processing that has an effect - anything on the mix buses or main output is also significant. EQ set on the LR bus to account for oddities in the room will always sound odd if the PA is turned around to point at the band. Also beware of A/B-ing different options if there's even a small level difference - it's very easy to pick the louder one as sounding better even if there's no other difference.

[Electrolytic]

its not the desk

 

he's struggling with the change and won't admit it /doesn't realise it.

 

He's covering his arse or has convinced him self its something when its actually probably something he's left engaged in the layers.

 

physiological

thread carefully.

let him know this is what we will be using from here on in.

[BigYinUK]

Yes, psychological is the word........ :)

 

His comment was that he's spent years perfecting his sound and he *knows* how it should sound. And, to be fair, there *was* a difference, although to my ears a lot more subtle that to his obviously.

 

What I don't want (and I know we'll get it) is a feeling of doubt that the X32 desk is good enough for us, so we should use xyx venue's Digico, Avid, Midas etc. We made the decision to tour our own desk for a whole load of reasons (separate thread on that one!), so IMO we should stick to that.

 

I'm going to take it round to his place and have a play with it. I've a feeling that if I zero out the desk and just put his keys flat into his HK PA (which is how he uses it) it'll sound the same, with or without the desk. So we can work from there.

[indyld]

When we put our X32 in a few years ago, replacing an analogue Soundcraft, I immediately noticed the difference and came to the conclusion it was me 'hearing digital' for the first time in that particular space. I found I didn't take to the sound if I am honest, I can only assume it was because it 'clearer' or at least certain frequencies were and I found the result less warm and friendly and a bit, er squashed and harsh. However, one could argue that I'd just got used to listening to a lot of analogue fluff and the 'sound' of the old desk even if it was actually colouring the inputs a good deal more. Bearing in mind that I spec'ed the desk and argued for it to be brought in early on in the X32 story, so it was in my interest to not start hearing anything other than beautiful audio amid our still skeptical techs. Luckily, I just thought, ah, it must be me getting used to a clearer sound in here, and moved on. I think that people got over the Behringer sticker in time.

 

However, as you state, the X32 is generally known as sounding decent for the price point and referred to as "no worse than an LS9". Trouble is, you are dealing with the mind of the player as much as the physics of the audio chain and the former is a lot harder to work with.

 

Oh, a thought. Does the keys player usually hear this sound from the practice PA or was that part of the initial shock? Perhaps it's always sounded lifeless out front. :)

[BigYinUK]

At home he uses either an HK performer PA that was bought for pub gigs but now sits in his back room, or a pair of Genelec monitors. At rehearsal he uses Shure SE215 in ears and the system driving them is Behringer's P16.

 

I can't think that the sound of the X32 would differ significantly from the P16i/P16M combination, which we've always thought is pretty good.

 

His *problem* with the X32 is that he did a bit of work a while back with a chap who owns one and *really* doesn't know what he's doing with it, so his experiences with the desk have not been great. Unfortunately the desk got the blame rather than the operator. We've used one on a couple of occasions at venues across the country and the sound has been pretty OK tbh. I usually take a wander out front for a listen whilst we're sound checking.

 

He has on occasion complained that the keys sound "lifeless" but that's been with various PAs and operators so difficult so put a finger on what that was about.

[sam.spoons]

Part of the difficulty is describing what the problem is, one man's harsh is another man's crisp etc. 'Lifeless' is a meaningless (or, at least very ambiguous) term with regard to sound, does he mean lacking in dynamics, or not compressed enough, lacking in top end (or high mids) or low end punch etc? I worked with a singer who, once at a soundcheck, when asked what specifically was wrong with the sound of his vocal said "it just sounds crap", I had to point out that I didn't have a "less crap" knob.http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif

[BigYinUK]

I think the best way to describe it is the difference between Steinway grand and honky tonk bar piano :)

[paulears]

That has to be something other than just a small personal choice - that's a big difference. Something is clearly wrong.