Frog floppy emulator

[Nicktaylor]

Tom

 

£16 for the emulator. 10 minutes to fix. No bugs!

I cant believe no one has an old £100 laptop that can have the fixture tool on it. Zero88 have always replied within a day when I question things about my old Leapfrog. That is good enough for me.

 

ps Microsoft dont support XP now. That is one of the very biggest companies in the world with tens of thousands of employees. Have you contacted them about the fact your old pcs are no longer supported?

 

Out of interest, what is an enterprise organisation?

Edited June 27, 2014 by Nicktaylor

[jonhole]

but we don't have access to a library any more

Just because we've updated our library doesn't mean the past libraries our users already have now don't work? It just means we now support a larger number of fixtures from a greater range of manufactures. If users are happy they don't need these new fixtures, they just keep with the version they have.

 

so we'd need library access.

And as we move forward, the access you need will be for new fixtures, not for old fixtures, so we still have a problem.

 

Every release you just need to break it half onto two disks for the stripped down version. It's all people are asking for and it isn't hard.

We're currently looking at a major upgrade of our library which will over triple the number of fixtures we're going to support. That would mean splitting the library across six separate floppy disks. There becomes a point where you have to just admit that Floppy Disk is no longer a suitable tool for distributing software. Apple made their first computer without Floppy Disk in 1998. Dell announced they were going to stop using them in 2003. PC World stopped selling them in 2007. Sony discontinued manufacturing and support in 2010. It's now 2014 and we're still supporting the use of floppy disks, we're just saying "Look guys, this isn't so easy any more..."

[alistermorton]

Zero88 are stuck between a rock and a hard place, here. They're doing everything they can to continue to support a technology (floppy disks) that is as good as dead and buried, on consoles which they haven't manufactured for some time, but soem peopel aren't able to make use of the resources they supply. This isn't the fault of Zero88 but I can see how for an end user it's frustrating.

 

That said, I can understand the frustrations of some end users, especially if they are in some corporate (or educational environment) where IT is centrally administered and connecting your own unmanaged device is a sacking offence (and lighting control consoles do get used in very corporate and educational environments of course). It's all very well for those of us with the luxury to do what we like to our machines to say "Just install this tool and do this" if the machines on the network are locked down and centrally administered, as they may well be in some environments (whether they should be is another discussion). For example, in my day job, most users cannot install any software to their own machine, it has to be installed from a central point via a remote installer, even details like the printer they can use is centrally controlled, and they do not have access to removable drives.

[Nicktaylor]

Those same corporate or educational environments will have long had the kit written off against tax. Its not been made for ten years or so. Its different for me with my tiny company. Not VAT registered. Pay the going rate for a desk and maybe get enough use over ten years to pay for it. In real life that never happens.

A laptop on a wifi can be outside the security of the organisation. I actually work for a small broadcaster, well not that small, and can hook up to a wifi with no danger to the security integrity of their systems.

It seems cherry picking moaning because Zero 88 are not falling over themselves ENOUGH to help those with older kit. I have phoned up for support with my desks and had instant advice. If not urgent I email or bulletin board the question. As I said before never more than 24 hours for a reply

[jonhole]

That said, I can understand the frustrations of some end users, especially if they are in some corporate (or educational environment) where IT is centrally administered and connecting your own unmanaged device is a sacking offence (and lighting control consoles do get used in very corporate and educational environments of course). It's all very well for those of us with the luxury to do what we like to our machines to say "Just install this tool and do this" if the machines on the network are locked down and centrally administered, as they may well be in some environments (whether they should be is another discussion). For example, in my day job, most users cannot install any software to their own machine, it has to be installed from a central point via a remote installer, even details like the printer they can use is centrally controlled, and they do not have access to removable drives.

 

Hi Alister,

 

We deal with customers in this situation almost daily. It's very rare that it can't be sorted after a phone call or an email to an IT administrator (who in the vast majority of circumstances is just down the corridor). It's not always quick, but if I was in the situation of receiving touring shows and groups regularly, I would be getting the software installed in advanced, so it was ready for that last-minute situation.

 

(Please remember... I work for a company with over 100,000 employees. For IT support, I have to phone a third party company who will then "raise a ticket" to get my issue fixed... I've been there, I've felt the pain, but you power through and make it work).

Edited June 27, 2014 by jonhole

[TomHoward]

I don't think it's unreasonable for Zero88 to split their library, considering this thread and their own support forum is full of users asking how they fit the 'stripped down' library (note: not the full version of the library, but a version without the palette data/parameter naming specifically designed to fit onto a floppy disk to support these older consoles) onto a floppy disk as designed.

 

Even if we had the fixtures in advance it would require us to make a custom fixture table as the standard library doesn't fit onto disk - which is a step that shouldn't be required. Hosting the library as individual fixture files rather than a common table as suggested would work as well, but without a windows PC with administrator rights there is no way to update the fixture file on a Frog desk - which is just stupid as it could so easily be the case.

 

This has been asked time and time again and the Zero 88 support answer is "fix it yourself".

 

£16 for the emulator. 10 minutes to fix. No bugs!

That doesn't fix the fact that the fixture library still won't fit on a 1.44MB partition...

 

What were the release dates of the Frog range Jon? It's nice to quote when Floppy Disk was considered obsolete, but doesn't the manufacture of the Frog range fall outside of those dates? So essentially if it was older hardware on release these problems were always going to arise.

[niclights]

We're currently looking at a major upgrade of our library which will over triple the number of fixtures we're going to support. That would mean splitting the library across six separate floppy disks. <snip>

 

Six? In Avo world it's now reached 55 :P (ok, maybe your files are just smaller!)

 

@Tom: Maybe it's time for a console upgrade?

 

 

Runs away.

[TomHoward]

I fully agree about the console upgrade, it's not me I'm worried about, but to supply a fixture library that requires editing prior to deployment is a little cumbersome when it could so easily be resolved.

 

If the fixture library is to be increased is there any merit to the suggestion of hosting the individual fixture files in an online library as well as the compiled table? That way users could download the fixture file, and load that from disk, without requiring user editing to get a profile onto the console.

[jonhole]

Considering this thread and their own support forum is full of users asking how they fit the 'stripped down' library ... onto a floppy disk as designed.

Actually, they aren't. There are three people on our own forum, and one of them is you. On this thread there is one person who has asked how to do it, and hasn't commented further.

 

(note: not the full version of the library, but a version without the palette data/parameter naming specifically designed to fit onto a floppy disk to support these older consoles)

This isn't "designed to fit on a floppy". It's designed to include just the data that those consoles require to operate. Our higher end consoles require much more information, and so there's a separate file for those.

 

This has been asked time and time again and the Zero 88 support answer is "fix it yourself".

Really? I don't think our answer has ever been fix it yourself. I think it's that we've made software available to allow even our longest customers, with very old lighting consoles, to make use of our latest fixture library.

 

What were the release dates of the Frog range Jon? It's nice to quote when Floppy Disk was considered obsolete, but doesn't the manufacture of the Frog range fall outside of those dates?

No, it doesn't. The console was released in 2001. The very last console was built in 2007, but production had been significantly ramped down by that point. This fits in perfectly with the dates I mentioned.

 

Six? In Avo world it's now reached 55 :P (ok, maybe your files are just smaller!)

This is just a library with very limited data - our full library's file size is well over 10 times larger.

Edited June 27, 2014 by jonhole

[TomHoward]

Rather than taking any input and responding to whether hosting individual files is a possibility, you repeatedly suggest that the user installs fixtures tools to do the required editing before deployment. On the support forum when one user says they tour into venues so it isn't convenient, you ask if they take a laptop? There couldn't be a more 'fix it yourself' attitude, rather than fixing the problem at source you're more interested in how users problems can be fixed with more work by the user.

 

Those dates do indicate late use of floppy disk then, which is fine - but you yourself carted out that I'm being unreasonable because Apple stopped using the floppy disk in 1998, when your desk wasn't released until three years after that! Late use of a technology is fine but to criticise your users for it when you created the hardware so late in the day is a bit hypocritical.

 

Also our console is 2006 so all this "10 years out of production console" bashing is misguided as well.

 

I don't think I'm asking for much, just that there be a reasonable response to whether there's a way floppy users (and USB emulator - which doesn't solve the problem here) would be able to load fixtures onto their console without having to install and run fixtures tools which is not an easy option for a lot of users - especially in the environments these desks are deployed in. There are ways of doing this - split the library, or host the fixture files individually rather than in a library. You may already have a folder full of the files so it may not be a major effort to make this available and it doesn't have to be presented nicely - just functional. I think you owe it to these users since you considered to use a 20-year old storage medium at the end of it's production run.

[david.elsbury]

I think you need to be reasonable, let this one go and just get on with life... the poor horse is well flogged by now! :) Edited June 28, 2014 by david.elsbury

[vinntec]

As the size is only just bigger than a floppy if you print out the list of fixtures and reduce them to a list that consists of your most likely suspects, and a few more, then if you don't have anywhere to create it yourself, ask Jon at Zero 88 and he will almost certainly do it and email it to you as it doesn't take long. This version could easily be made available to others, although their list might well be different so might not be worthwhile other than having a note on the BlueRoom to say "ask me if you need it". If Jon is tied up, for instance at a trade show, then ask on the BlueRoom and I would expect someone would be willing to do it for you (once).

 

We recently retired our venerable Fat Frog so I will no longer be able to help myself, but I think there are enough of the old Frog range around?

[alistermorton]

Hi Alister,

 

We deal with customers in this situation almost daily. It's very rare that it can't be sorted after a phone call or an email to an IT administrator (who in the vast majority of circumstances is just down the corridor). It's not always quick, but if I was in the situation of receiving touring shows and groups regularly, I would be getting the software installed in advanced, so it was ready for that last-minute situation.

 

Don't get me wrong, Jon, I think you go the extra mile supporting your customers. Hope I didn't come across as thinking otherwise.

 

 

 

[TomHoward]

I think you need to be reasonable, let this one go and just get on with life... the poor horse is well flogged by now! :)

I'll let it go.. It's just the hypocrisy of suggesting that users are hanging onto an outdated medium when you were responsible for introducing it so late..

 

Like selling a 4-star cars in 1999 and then having a go at your clients in 2006 when they are still driving them.

Edited June 28, 2014 by TomHoward

[Stuart91]

I'll let it go.. It's just the hypocrisy of suggesting that users are hanging onto an outdated medium when you were responsible for introducing it so late..

 

Like selling a 4-star cars in 1999 and then having a go at your clients in 2006 when they are still driving them.

 

There's normally a flip side to this kind of situation, though. I bought our first Fat Frog console around 2004. I remember it being a purchase that took quite a lot of deliberation beforehand, and we were struggling to justify the cost. Looking back, the console has paid for itself in spades, but we were quite concerned about spending what was quite a large lump of money for us at the time. Would we have paid an extra £100 on top for USB functionality rather than the floppy disc? I honestly don't know, but if the additional cost didn't swing the decision against Zero for us, it would have for some other buyers. You can repeat the same process and argument for every other piece of new(ish) technology that you include with any product.

 

Times change, sometimes faster than we realise. In 2006 almost every non-Apple PC was still shipping with a floppy drive, and USB storage was an order of magnitude more expensive than it is now. So what seems obvious in hindsight maybe isn't quite as clear-cut for those making production decisions at the time.

 

Based on my own experiences with Zero88 products, and their training and support, I'd happily buy again, and spend a little less time agonising over the purchase this time around.