ojc123 Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 I have a number of new student technicians from 13 to 16 years old. We set up the sound system for a gig yesterday. We used balanced XLR mic leads and unbalanced jacks for the guitar. Nothing unusual in that. I explained how balanced systems work and how they are better than unbalanced systems for reducing hums and other noises. I am asked, "Why don't guitars have balanced outputs then?" I admitted that I had never given the matter a thought but promise to get back to them. I Googled a variety of phrases but got nothing to my satisfaction. It appears that balanced guitar outputs can be produced, but that they are not used. I have some guesses but I might as well give them a more considered answer. Can anyone enlighten me so I can answer this seemingly simple question? Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadhippy Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 cost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modge Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 In the case of instruments I'd add "Because we always have and change would be effort", the same reason lots of silly things are done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbsy Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Yup. Cost. ...and because the "cost/benefit analysis" doesn't justify increasing that cost. The noise present in a guitar system has almost become a part of the "sound" of an electric guitar. Even if you had a completely clean feed from the guitar to the amp and a low noise pre-amp in the electronics, how many guitarists would deliberately add all sorts of fuzz and distortion because it "sounds better"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Backwards compatability - Vintage guitars, vintage amps, vintage fx units. My Line 6 uses Neutrik Cat5, but not much use with an AC30? It would also mean double pole selector switches, and more expense - and a lot less choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ojc123 Posted November 24, 2011 Author Share Posted November 24, 2011 Inertia was one of my guesses. I supposed that it's like driving on the left, just too much bother to change. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 One might argue that guitars are balanced as the signal has no earth reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 One might argue that guitars are balanced as the signal has no earth reference. but they have a 'medium' output impedance which messes things up a little... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Cost & inertia are valid drivers. An intentionally "noisy" sound, a little less so, maybe! But the key reason is that there's little benefit to be gained from using balanced connections for the short runs involved with instument cables, where they're rarely more than 5m at most and carry relatively high level signals. The real gains from balanced connections are when they're longer 10-100m or more, and carrying very low, mic level signals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramdram Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Possibly the very first electric guitars/pick-ups (this is a suggestion mind) were connected by two wires, but high impedance, (around 50kohms perhaps), thus prone to collecting all sorts of electrical shash. Possibly the leads were longer than we use today? Possibly when the leads were plugged in to the amp head they draped down in front of the speakers? Then someone thought of coaxial cables and the way they supposedly screen a signal so experimented and found there was an improvement so in time it became de rigeur to use a metal jack plus a cable with screen and center conductor. Perhaps too with the advent of bands touring in very large arenas the original amp heads and cabs were simply nothing like powerful enough and it was found necessary to extend the leads to the separate mixer/PA systems. The leads were too high an impedance so some bright spark came up with the Di box, to convert from unbalanced to balanced and reduce the impedance thus allowing for longer leads travelling across a stage. May have been when Cannon invented the XL system which morphed into the XLR we see today? Then the ground lift was added and very long runs could be used...because venues became even larger? I did say it was speculative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbsy Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Cost & inertia are valid drivers. An intentionally "noisy" sound, a little less so, maybe! I wasn't suggesting that they use an unbalanced signal as a means of creating noise, just that paying the extra cost to balance the circuit is a bit pointless on an instrument that is going to be deliberately driven into fuzz and distortion anyway. Who could hear the difference in signal to noise on most electric guitars with all the effects that are added? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidRay Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Just thought I'd add that some acoustic/electric guitars do have balanced outputs, e.g. Taylor ES series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigclive Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 One might argue that guitars are balanced as the signal has no earth reference. Noting that it's not unusual for guitar players to get fried when touching earthed metalwork when the audio system has been "done by an expert". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callumb Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 One might argue that guitars are balanced as the signal has no earth reference. Noting that it's not unusual for guitar players to get fried when touching earthed metalwork when the audio system has been "done by an expert". Done that in school. http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif By heck did the guitarist wake up. Soon after that I fixed the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUDIOTECHNOLOGYLTD Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 Hi.Balanced is only needed where it has it's place passive or active and it's really not in instrument outs as balanced does lose freq response, especially when using ic's,as most manufacturer's do to keep cost down, and not discreet circuits, or valves(cost a lot),and most of the top producers prefer un-balanced in-outs nn their outboard equipment for that reason.In an on stage situation it's another game and always good to have the choice of what bit of kit to use for that job valve or transistor active balanced line units.I would add though the best sounding are expensive but they do the job well i.e. Manley, millenia, link etc etc, and don't forget the player's style as some do like it HOT!!As said it's not needed when Eric's jamming in the front room with an AC30!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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