Advice on my future

[Bobbsy]

Listen to Simon. He knows what he is talking about.

 

You also have to really think about your long term goals and ambitions.

 

Sound is a bit of a strange animal. You can go a long way with basic hands on experience but, on the flip side, is all the physics and mathematics associated with acoustics and system design. You don't need all the science to mix a band or musical on a pre-existing system but it can sure help if you have to plan the system from scratch or troubleshoot problems.

 

So...if you're viewing a course as simply something to teach you about microphone choice and placement and hands-on mixing, practical experience in the industry may do a better job. But if you want to actually understand the science of the gear you're using, that's pretty difficult to pick up by osmosis--formal training is necessary.

 

As Simon says, every time this question comes up, two camps form immediately, generally based on how the people posting got their jobs. However, there is no single "on size fits all" answer and the reality is that both formal education and experience have their own benefits.

[paulears]

The one thing that people never talk about is progression. When you start in the business, wearing your steelies and blacks, do you really think about what happens later on. When you get to your fifties, like me, you'll start to not find the physical stuff fun at all, and not want to do it. If you're lucky, by then you will have a nice staff job, under no threat of redundancy and have a nice pension, and for the even luckier few, a nice shift to more managerial work, and perhaps even a no show requirement, working 9-5.

 

At some stage you will probably want to shift your 'level' and move up. This up-shifting in your career often introduces areas of work you're not experienced in, so you can be disadvantaged. Maybe it requires more paperwork? Pretty common. If you have not had a university 'level' education, you actually could find you don't have the vocabulary and skill set to be able to produce written documents of the required standard. The constant stream of uni students needing help with their dissertations shows how difficult many find this sudden requirement to be able to research, analyse, discriminate and produce conclusions in the format businesses use.

 

This often means very skilled candidates are compromised in their progression simply because the graduates can dig up their uni experience and offer more of the essential skills for the new job. A nice combination of practical skills, knowledge and management ability is often the pre-requisite for the senior jobs. So the lack of university education may not matter when you're on the lower levels of the pyramid, but gets more important as the level goes up and the area shrinks.

 

It's not impossible to do your Higher Education when you are older, that's what I did, when a teaching job was dangled when I was in my thirties. In fact, I really believe that I wasn't ready for it at 18, and I'm glad I didn't do it. Back then, very few of my school friends went to uni - I can remember the university progression at that time was less than 5% at my school (The comp featured in the awful TV programme - Rock School, with Gene Symmonds - remember it?). Back then of course, the choice of university courses on offer just didn't appeal, so I got a job on a pier, doing seasonal summer shows - which I still do!

 

For many people, I get the distinct impression that they go to uni without any direction. They really don't know what they want to do - so any choice gets made almost on a whim. Simon's suggestion to ask hard questions is the best advice I've heard for a long time. Under graduates often feel that they are lucky to get a place, so don't rock the boat - but the unis really want the best people they can get for their individual course. It's very difficult for them to get the right mix of people, so actually asking the questions tags you as a person who cares, not as a pain. If they think you have selected them as a proper considered choice, they may be more interested in offering you a place, rather than somebody else, if they get over-subscribed.

[brainwave-generator]

The long, sound engineering course? Generally pointless. There are hundreds of them over the country, and they all produce 99% complete failures that expect to graduate then go FOH for U2 within 6 weeks and bypass the whole cable coiling and deck shifting aspect of life. As a result, the industry opinion of those courses is quite dim, and whilst yes you will learn the SKILLS, don't expect to really get any closer to your goal. If you do want to do one, London is the place to go, as you can join all the local crews and at least get some valuable work experience in whilst at University, as that is what will get you the work.

 

Its the skills that I'm looking to get, I know that becoming FOH engineer will take years, if not decades. but if the opportunity came I would like to have the knowledge on how to mix things to their best.. and I still believe that If I was up against someone without a degree, It would make the the preferred choice because I have that qualification. I already have a few years of experience and I think that I need to learn more in this area before I can comfortably step up on what experience I get, However if doing a course which is more focused on production as a whole will be more beneficial then I should maybe look in to other courses?

 

You believe wrong. Seriously. No live sound company gives a flying @@@@ whether you have a degree in it or not, as they all understand that it's not a requirement.

 

Do you know what the difference between a degree and an HND is? A degree is an ACADEMIC qualification. It's research based. It can have some practical elements, but the qualification itself represents an understanding of the subject, tested through your ability to write about it. An HND is a VOCATIONAL qualification. It's practical based. It can have some research elements, but the qualification itself represents an ability to perform the skill, tested through practical examination. So a DEGREE will not prove to an employer that you are any more useful. Brit Row or SSE do not employ people to write about their sound systems, they employ people to USE them, and that is something you gain with experience.

 

It's unfortunate for your age group, you have all been brought through school being led to believe that degrees are now mandatory requirements. That situation has actually led to quite an opposite reality, where due to every man and his dog having a degree, the overall value of them has been somewhat reduced. Time and time again, graduate employees prove themselves to be crap, and employers have realised that genuine real world experience is the only measure for judging a person's competence prior to commencing a job.

 

If you are going to go down that route, I would say SSR Live Sound course. It's the most tailored to the industry, the SAE courses are geared towards working in one of the top 50 studios in the world, which unfortunately will never happen to you. Well, it might, but you have to treat it as if it won't. If you do get to work in one of those, you'll have gathered more than enough experience to do so without SAE's input.

 

If I was going to spend any money, I would prefer to gain a government recognised degree - SSR give out their own certificates which are in effect, worthless compared to SAE's BA/BSc (Honours) degree (validated by Middlesex University) what I am looking to get out of a university course is knowledge that can be applied to my future experience.

 

 

SSR degrees are accredited so you don't have to worry. Whoever told you they just dished out their own certificates was lying to you. They are of no less value than SAE qualifications. Any employer can see through the BS and see that neither is Physics from Oxford, which university accredits it is utterly irrelevant in the real world, unless accredited by a university of notable mention. Middlesex is not one of those. SSR only do diplomas and foundation degrees, but that is because (ref. above) they recognise that the subject is not one that can be applied to an academic qualification (degree). I think that is respectable.

 

But moreso, I think you have utterly gone back on yourself. Bolded above, "It's the skills I'm looking to get". Sorry- is that, "It's the skills I'm looking to get, but I'm not going to take a course that teachers those skills because I just want a degree" or is that "It's the skills I'm looking to get". If it's the latter, would it not be sensible to do a course in what you want, rather than a qualification in something you don't? If I wanted to be a drummer, would I be better off with a degree in guitar or a diploma in drumming?

 

SSR don't offer the degree that SAE do. No. But they do offer their live sound course in conjunction with Brit Row, and Wigwam, and STS, and Avid, and D&B, and REGULARLY get students on work experience programs with some of those firms. A friend of mine is a sound engineer at Brit Row who got there straight from SSR, who are a company that generally oppose to the academia-based 'training' of young sound engineers in this country. SAE will give you a degree and tell you 'you're now one of the most talented sound engineers in the country, go find a job'. And before you know it you'll be back on here begging somebody to let you plug their speakers in.

 

I'm not an SSR employee, nor do I particularly endorse their company. But I am quite anti-SAE, just due to the fact that the skills they teach are great fun for 2 years but have no practical application value. Nobody needs students who are wizards of Neve consoles but don't understand copyright law. I would say that beyond that, the general view of SAE grads is quite dim.

 

I wrote my university thesis on Education in the Music Industry and the careers and futures available to graduates of music based degrees. I concluded that the majority of academia-based courses in 'sound engineering' were pointless, due in part to the fact that, by DEFINITION, 'Sound Engineering' is a VOCATIONAL (ie Practical) skill, and thus only valuable when taught as a practical subject; but beyond that, the only students who found genuine, decent, well-paying professional work as graduates, were those who partook in active work experience programs, internships, or actual work, whilst at University. The benefit to attending an establishment like SSR, is whilst you don't get your degree, you attend a course which has regular, active links for internships already in place with the major live sound companies. You don't get that with MOST of the universities offering 'sound engineering' courses. Most will teach you all about Pro Tools and Reason for 3 years then drop you in the poo when in your 3rd year you realise there is no future and you need to start looking for admin jobs.

 

Don't make the mistake thousands make. If all you want is a degree, go to a red brick university and get a proper degree. If you want a degree whilst having fun for 2 years, go to SAE. If you want a diploma, and a job, go to a university with the internship and work experience connections to make that happen. To be a live sound engineer, that IS SSR. For general live event production work, that is Bucks New, and for music industry work, that is the University of Westminster.

[nothingatall666]

Blue Room often gets in a tizz when this sort of question comes up. Most will argue for the route they have actually taken, and will point to examples of failure in other pathways.

 

The key thing for you is to explore what each of the options available to you can offer, and how this might fit in with your medium and long term goals.

 

Good point, looks like I shall definitely take a visit to a selection of places and do my own investigations in to the best route for me..

 

It is very interesting to see the difference of opinions about Higher Education, - possibly it shows that there is room for me north with and without a degree. With the option there to do it now I think it would be wise to take it.

 

 

For many people, I get the distinct impression that they go to uni without any direction. They really don't know what they want to do - so any choice gets made almost on a whim. Simon's suggestion to ask hard questions is the best advice I've heard for a long time...

 

Point noted, Thanks :)

 

It is being pushed quite a bit at the moment, have you looked at anything from the backstage academy ?

 

Only the second time I've heard mention of it.. looks like the ideal place to get 'tickets' from.. I will look in to it further.

 

 

Thank-you to everyone for all the interesting points. Couldn't have asked for more!

[paulears]

Unless I'm mistaken, SAE award degrees through the University of Middlesex, but SSR courses are not validated by a university, so in terms of putting the certificate on the scales, SAE full time courses have more 'worth'. Short courses are a different matter-they are, what they are.

[Simon Lewis]

Unless I'm mistaken, SAE award degrees through the University of Middlesex, but SSR courses are not validated by a university,

 

SSR have validated some of their courses with local universities. This obviously has positive aspects to it, but it can also mean entry requirements become more stringent. For those who valued places that focussed on training and the possibility of a 16 year old leaving school with a poor academic profile but becoming good backstage crew / sound engineer etc. the degree route was not as welcome.

 

Brainwave highlights the traditional divide between degree and HND. In reality, the picture is more complex. Many degrees have increased their vocational content or are applied versions of the pure subject. Not so many places now teach straight biology or chemistry, but many will offer degrees in sports science, environmental science and forensics. Goodness knows where the latter graduates get jobs! The fact that there have been degree top ups from HND for years means that many graduates actually took a more vocational route. The introduction of foundation degrees as an HND replacement (and the usual follow on top up) means that the whole academic / vocational divide is no longer clear, but if anything there has been a shift by many of the HE providers towards "vocation rich" applied courses.

 

Vocation based courses may well provide work experience with the larger hire companies. However, that does not mean that the same doesn't happen regularly with some of the degree providers. Furthermore, some of the key people in the firms mentioned above have a certain engineering based degree ;-)

 

Simon

[paulears]

I do suspect SSR filled a hole - lots of people used to talk about SAE as the place for live sound, until they discovered on doing some research that they are really into studio engineering, and that's their niche. The reality nowadays is that places that can offer good training just need to be friendly with their local university and do a deal, and then can offer a proper qualification. The trouble is, the training would have been just as good without the label in most cases, and it puts prices up in return for the "validated by the university of ...." tag.

[kerry davies]

It is an interesting subject and one in which much more research could be done. The less vocational Uni's are twixt a rock and a hard place right now as degree qualification becomes more of a questionable financial bargain.

 

The commercial element whereby HE can charge an amount for a degree which gives access to a certain strata of waged work has been upset by the increased tuition fees. It has also been upset by the relative, inflation compensated, fall in wages particularly in our industry sector. Comment I have had from graduates indicate that unless they can gain employment in the rock touring rather than theatrical venue areas, then earning whilst doing some form of apprenticeship is optimal. The rewards in theatre just do not make a full-time degree cost-effective use of ones time.

 

That is hearsay and anecdotal but seems to make sense. I see all HE establishments claiming completely full employment for every graduate and this is patent nonsense. Some (many?) of them must be lying to account for national government issued figures.

 

One of the most pressing needs for young people is a true reckoning of what they gain for what outlay. At a guess I would posit that the majority of graduates in technical theatre begin working life as self-employed part-timers but I simply don't know. There are no reliable statistics and HE needs to be more honest about its' commercial side and state exactly what they are selling, for selling it they indeed are.

[David Ripley]

I see all HE establishments claiming completely full employment for every graduate and this is patent nonsense

 

Depends on how you count employment: one place I worked meant any kind of employment - McDonalds, half a day get in etc etc You probably couldn't do that now (Due to the economy not the way they count) In fact I ran into one graduate who was only aware of 2 of their year still in the industry 5 years out. Lies, damn lies and statistics eh?

 

If the OP is considering theatre rather than rock'n'roll sound (reinforcement as opposed to amplification) then perhaps a Sound Design course might suit better. There are degree level design courses out there that deal with the technology as well as the philosophy of sound in theatre. See Deena kaye and James Lebrecht's Sound and Music for Theatre for more on the philosophy of using sound

 

It also worth doing the visits, talking to students, seing where the graduates are now and so on. The trouble with all the courses out there is the variation. I know of degree courses that range from a cheap way to service the performing students productions with learning by osmosis to fully fledged academic courses with large amount of writing as well as production work required and everything in between.

 

Ultimately the OP must choose for himself what is right for him in terms of cost, duration, content, the staff and ultimately employability Only he can decide what is the right path all we can offer is opinion

 

David

[Simon Lewis]

I see all HE establishments claiming completely full employment for every graduate and this is patent nonsense.

This seems bizarre? Do you have a reference for this, as I would certainly like to follow it up...

[Junior8]

You've given yourself the very best advice - and that is to take a year out. When I went back to Uni to do a Masters in 1997 I was astonished and utterly depressed by the sight of large numbers of freshers who'd clearly ended up a) somewhere they didn't want to be b)studying something they quickly realized was a mistake c) straight after A level. Only now were they learning that teacher didn't know best. Later in another role I spoke to a sixth former of to do PPE at Durham who had no idea where Durham actually was - Mum and dad had 'babysat' him to the interview by car!

 

Take that year off, enjoy yourself, learn to drive if you haven't already done so, get as much experience as you can, put the cash in the bank and do the sums that others have suggested to see whether the money spent on Uni would be worthwhile. (Remembering of course that all the debt to be settled afterwards will come out of taxed income!)

 

But do the sums, and if the figures seem to come out the wrong (disadvantageous) way don't ignore them. Paying off debt is like pushing a rock uphill. It doens't get any easier!

[Simon Lewis]

Depends on how you count employment: one place I worked meant any kind of employment - McDonalds, half a day get in etc etc

 

The stats that I'm familiar with differentiate between "in employment" (i.e. working, not on benefits) and "in graduate employment" (i.e. a job that requires a graduate level qualification). I would be worried about specialist courses where graduates do not work in at least some branch of the industry they've studied for!

 

Simon

[Sam Jelfs]

There seems to be a few people saying you can either have experience or a degree, but not both, which in my mind seems ridiculous... I did the SLLET course at Derby a few years ago, and aside from all of the practical experience gained as part of the course, it is quite feasible to get plenty of real-world experience as well. I ended up working for a local PA hire company, going out on gigs (inc corporate, clubs, weddings and more), as well as working for various other companies and a number of festivals over the summers. Just because you are at uni during the day, doesn't mean you can't work gigs at the weekend, best of both worlds in my mind.*

 

One other point, a course like the one at Derby, which is not a solely 'live sound' course gives you plenty of options to fall back on. It will train you in electronics, DSP, microprocessor programming and much more (depending on module choices of course). Between starting the course and finishing my attitude and career goals changed, when I started I wanted to be a live sound engineer, and that was it, by the time I finished I was much more interested in computer programming, circuit design, and research, and thanks to the degree having given me a good background in the right areas I managed to find a fully-funded postgrad position at another institute. If I had gone to SSR / SAE I doubt that would ever have been an option and I would be back where I was pre-degree...

 

I know a lot of the time this forum comes across as rather pro-Derby Uni, mainly due to the high number of ex-Derby graduates (as well as Simon and Kit), but I do think if you are going to go to uni for whatever reason, a wider ranging course than the "live sound" type ones is worth investigating, they will open more doors to you, maybe not within the industry, but in many other places, giving you much more to fall back on in increasingly difficult employment market.

 

* - of course all within reason, getting the uni work / paid work balance right is important - arriving for an exam on only 3 hours sleep after a late get-out the night before is a bad idea, as is writing your assignments on your laptop whilst in the passenger seat of the truck on the way to/from a gig... trust me, I know ;)

[Brian]

Other live sound courses are available.

 

One of the people behind Deep Blue Sound is a very well respected live sound engineer.

[ramdram]

We have had some lads, and lady, working at our venue straight out of DBS. They are as you say more live sound (than drama per se, but they soon adapt and are quite useful) and understood the tech riders when we had visiting bands.

 

A few of them did live sound at a club in Plymouth, with real bands in real time, so to speak, ie. they knew about late nights...so they were very much hands on with regard to work experience.

 

Others did the live sound arrangements at local events so nobody was left in any doubt as to the amount of physical work involved...on top of actually knowing what to do when it was all connected together, ** laughs out loud **. Their "practical" work was a treat to see and all cables neatly laid out/desks carefully labeled etc, etc, etc.

 

DBS is also quite good at pointing its students into the slightly more esoteric aspects of sound. A while back they used our venue as a practice volume (imagine irregular cone with truncated base, ** laughs out loud **) to measure sound dispersion from various sources. Data collected on lappies via calibrated mics and results produced with software the name of which escapes me now but the diagrams of the results were "colour coded" for instant comparison, ie. they covered the more academic aspects of "sound" also.

 

Also had some students experimenting with subs in endfire arrangements, changing phase, reversing one box in the line etc, etc, so both practical and academic aspects in one hit. And experiments with multi speaker arrangements around the venue demonstrating the use of delay.

 

They were accompanied by a Jim P. who was regarded almost as the guru, ** laughs out loud **, and what he does not know about live sound is not worth knowing sort of thing.

 

I gather that this year they are adding a degree course in conjunction with Plymouth Uni, so DBS is certainly worth a visit on their open days.

 

(Plus of course Plymouth is at the seaside...and if you were interested in old ales and even older pubs then try the Minerva.)