Advice on my future

[smalljoshua]

I must say, for sound technicians, and only sound technicians, dBs is pretty nice, 5 mins from the waterfront too! I've heard dBs students engineering though, and I must say, they don't seem to do enough critical listening. Think live band (who I've mixed also, as it happens) where there is no audible: kick, snare, bass, vocals. It was all cymbals, toms and guitar. The venue is easy to mix in, the just don't seem to have many good engineers, I've heard 2 guys (out of about 2 dozen I've met from dBs) produce a nice mix from there.

 

I will also say, it's a bit of a taboo, in Plymouth, to say you've been trained by dBs. I'm not overly sure why (I've been given many reasons, but they're all hear say) but I don't know of a single company in Plymouth that's taking on dBs graduates.

 

The Minerva is very nice, as is Cuba (club, not pub) on North Hill come to think of it.

 

Josh (Missing Plymouth a bit)

[Jivemaster]

When you write a CV your last job will set the bar for your next job, and your best exam passes will set the bar for your career level, until you find your own level after a few (say 10 ish) years.

 

So get some real work experience, under 16 experience counts nil in the real world, college events experience counts half and paid work is what employers really look for.

 

Real exam passes may help your career progression especially if you want to move into management later on.

 

In this industry I'd look for a flexible learning system being offered and get some casual staff work as well.

 

Finally (for now!) get the permanent certificates as soon as you can and the short life certificates as late as possible. As soon as you can, do something really interesting - nothing upsets interviewers more than a candidate who is uninteresting.

[nothingatall666]

Been out and about for a few days, coming back to this is more than I expected!

 

You've given yourself the very best advice - and that is to take a year out. When I went back to Uni to do a Masters in 1997 I was astonished and utterly depressed by the sight of large numbers of freshers who'd clearly ended up a) somewhere they didn't want to be b)studying something they quickly realized was a mistake c) straight after A level. Only now were they learning that teacher didn't know best.

 

Take that year off, enjoy yourself, learn to drive if you haven't already done so, get as much experience as you can, put the cash in the bank and do the sums that others have suggested to see whether the money spent on Uni would be worthwhile. (Remembering of course that all the debt to be settled afterwards will come out of taxed income!)

 

But do the sums, and if the figures seem to come out the wrong (disadvantageous) way don't ignore them. Paying off debt is like pushing a rock uphill. It doens't get any easier!

 

thanks for your advice! got the driving ticked (over a year ago now), experience will never be ticked but I have managed to get some interesting things lined up, I am fortunate enough to have access to a trust which means paying off debts will be none (or little)..

 

There seems to be a few people saying you can either have experience or a degree, but not both, which in my mind seems ridiculous... I did the SLLET course at Derby a few years ago, and aside from all of the practical experience gained as part of the course, it is quite feasible to get plenty of real-world experience as well. I ended up working for a local PA hire company, going out on gigs (inc corporate, clubs, weddings and more), as well as working for various other companies and a number of festivals over the summers. Just because you are at uni during the day, doesn't mean you can't work gigs at the weekend, best of both worlds in my mind.*

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I'm going to look at derby, and a lot of other places now. I think I still am swaying towards london-ish way, because it might be easier to get that real-world experience (and different types of) but I am not counting out anything until I have visited.

 

We have had some lads, and lady, working at our venue straight out of DBS. They are as you say more live sound (than drama per se, but they soon adapt and are quite useful) and understood the tech riders when we had visiting bands.

 

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First of heard of this place, I shall take a look online (and then possibly on person) first disadvantage being that the seas in briton are never warm enough to get in to.. :)

 

 

Thank-you again to everyone posting, they all make for great reads!

[TomHoward]

Just to throw my experience into the water, although this quote may be true:

 

I concluded that the majority of academia-based courses in 'sound engineering' were pointless, due in part to the fact that, by DEFINITION, 'Sound Engineering' is a VOCATIONAL (ie Practical) skill, and thus only valuable when taught as a practical subject; but beyond that, the only students who found genuine, decent, well-paying professional work as graduates, were those who partook in active work experience programs, internships, or actual work, whilst at University. ... [MOST of the universities offering 'sound engineering' courses] will teach you all about Pro Tools and Reason for 3 years then drop you in the poo when in your 3rd year you realise there is no future and you need to start looking for admin jobs.

 

There are a couple of places that do teach it well. Personally I'm a LIPA graduate, and with that being a specific arts university there is no shortage of practical experience within the course itself - as you are alongside other performing arts degree courses, there are plenty of highly skilled actors and musicians working on live events and recording material - all of which need the technical support. There are overall assessed events (both theatrical and music) where all disciplines come together and almost everyone (actors, costume designers, set builders, lighting designers, sound technicians and stage and production management) will be getting evaluated and assessed on their work - which is certainly a far cry from simply being assessed on paper. I think there were distinct advantages of it being a dedicated performing arts institute, but I do have to say that although I have no direct experience I did visit the open day at Derby uni at the time I was applying and was impressed with the course offering there as well.

[Dicky]

I recently interviewed a music technology graduate (who has been working for a couple of years since) for a full time position and the candidate stated that there had been 90 people on the course he was on and that most of it was classroom based work and the only people who were getting work once they had graduated were the ones who had gone out themselves to look for work on live sound in bars/clubs/theatres/etc. so that they had actual live experience rather than having only used the expensively kitted out recording studios at the college.

 

I will not be offering interviews to graduates unless they can prove on their application that they have had some experience in the real world during their time at college/university to back up their education. It's really obvious when reading applications to spot those that have done work outside their college and those that have not.

 

Dicky

[Sam Jelfs]

*snip*

so that they had actual live experience rather than having only used the expensively kitted out recording studios at the college.

 

I will not be offering interviews to graduates unless they can prove on their application that they have had some experience in the real world during their time at college/university to back up their education. It's really obvious when reading applications to spot those that have done work outside their college and those that have not.

 

Dicky

 

surely that is a little short sighted? There is a large difference between someone who has done a Music Tech course and someone who has done a Live Sound course, at least in terms of course content... Ok, I know I keep on about Derby, but its one of the universities I have experience of... the course content of the Music Technology courses and the Live Sound course is hugely different. They share a few core modules (basic electronics, maths etc) but other than that they both have a number of dedicated specialist modules, a graduate from the live sound course will have had a very different learning experience at the university that one on the music tech course... I am not saying that experience isn't a major benefit, but to outright dismiss a graduate (who may otherwise be very good) because they didn't work whilst at university seems a little unfair. I know a few people who I graduated with who have gone on to work at a decent level within the industry, but weren't out gigging every weekend whilst at uni...

 

That said, I started a music tech course and left after 1 term. At the interview stage they said that they were in the process of changing the course content and that an element of live sound would be included by the time I started. After 1 term it became clear that there was not going to be any live sound taught at any point within the course, and a quick look on the relevant university website shows me that there still isn't 8 years later... The course did turn out some very well trained recording engineers (especially for classical music due to where the studios were / are based) but nobody with any idea of how to run a live event.

[brainwave-generator]

*snip*

so that they had actual live experience rather than having only used the expensively kitted out recording studios at the college.

 

I will not be offering interviews to graduates unless they can prove on their application that they have had some experience in the real world during their time at college/university to back up their education. It's really obvious when reading applications to spot those that have done work outside their college and those that have not.

 

Dicky

 

surely that is a little short sighted? There is a large difference between someone who has done a Music Tech course and someone who has done a Live Sound course, at least in terms of course content... Ok, I know I keep on about Derby, but its one of the universities I have experience of... the course content of the Music Technology courses and the Live Sound course is hugely different. They share a few core modules (basic electronics, maths etc) but other than that they both have a number of dedicated specialist modules, a graduate from the live sound course will have had a very different learning experience at the university that one on the music tech course... I am not saying that experience isn't a major benefit, but to outright dismiss a graduate (who may otherwise be very good) because they didn't work whilst at university seems a little unfair. I know a few people who I graduated with who have gone on to work at a decent level within the industry, but weren't out gigging every weekend whilst at uni...

 

I think, having done it this year (taken on students for a weeks experience) is that there is just too much to teach them about "how we do it in the real world" and you end up having to "monkey see monkey do" them through everything, which you could do with anybody - graduate, non graduate, or indeed actual monkey.

 

Just basic skills like running the multicore are not taught at university because they are more interested in doing the fun stuff. I had a guy who was an absolute ninja with ArrayCalc and was showing me all the functions I didn't know about, but when it came down to it, didn't know how to fly Q-series line array (one of the systems in arraycalc). Reality? One person needed to operate ArrayCalc, 3 people needed to fly speakers. If I'd taken 2 of his classmates, I'd have had it the other way round. That's my concern - they seem to know a lot of very advanced interesting things, but have little grip of the basics. And when you take new people on, you generally need them doing the basics before you let them loose on the big stuff.

 

That said, I started a music tech course and left after 1 term. At the interview stage they said that they were in the process of changing the course content and that an element of live sound would be included by the time I started. After 1 term it became clear that there was not going to be any live sound taught at any point within the course, and a quick look on the relevant university website shows me that there still isn't 8 years later... The course did turn out some very well trained recording engineers (especially for classical music due to where the studios were / are based) but nobody with any idea of how to run a live event.

 

Surely a Music Technology course, with or without live sound element, is not there to teach people how to run a live event anyway? I would have thought a "Live Event Production" course would do that.

[Dicky]

To clarify, the majority of the job specifications that I send out for roles at the organisation I work for state in the 'essential criteria' section that you need to have at least 1 years professional experience (amongst many other essential criteria depending on the role).

 

Referring specifically to the jobs that I advertise which have this clearly stated in the essential criteria, unless you are a graduate who can prove on your application that you have been working professionally (i.e. on jobs outside of the college/uni environment) for at least a year, then you do not meet that particular criteria for the role. Other employers may have different criteria.

 

That's not to say that you will not get an interview for the post, we always look at every aspect of the person specification and job description and how an applicant matches up to it by what they have written in their application. We then interview the candidates that are the closest match.

 

I applaud anyone who goes onto further education, however to make yourself more employable, use your time at university/college making industry contacts and doing as much casual/paid/professional work as you can in your spare time, as this shows someone like me (a potential employer) that you have actively looked for extra work and got more experience. It also could mean that you have industry professionals who are willing to act as a reference on job applications.

 

Dicky

[Rax]

Just checking. Has anyone mentioned the renowned Tonmeister course at University Of Surrey, or the Sound Design course at Ravensbourne? Both churn out graduates with accredited uni degrees.

[Simon Lewis]

Just checking. Has anyone mentioned the renowned Tonmeister course at University Of Surrey, or the Sound Design course at Ravensbourne? Both churn out graduates with accredited uni degrees.

 

I'm not sure that either are externally accredited? Surrey has a very good course and research department. However, the Tonmeister entry requirements will attract quite a specific type of applicant. Similarly Ravensbourne has a very good course. Some of their programmes are Skillset accredited, but not the Sound Design BA? Of course, to some extent mixing skills are transferable between different areas of the audio industry, but I would perhaps look for other aspects to be included for the live sound engineer.

 

In this thread some posters seem to have confused validation (where the University itself determines that an award is suitable in all aspects of its design, delivery and assessment - either for internal programmes or external courses at other institutions) and accreditation (where the University's services or programmes are externally evaluated - typically by a professional or governing body in the field).Where courses are externally accredited, it is worth looking at who has done this ... For example, a course accredited by Joe's Building Services might not carry as much weight as one accredited by the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors ;-)

[Bobbsy]

I know a couple of people who have done the Tonmeister course and both considered it to be excellent (and both are doing good jobs in their chosen industries). However, the Tonmeister is aimed more at musicians and studio work than live (though one of my friends does a lot of live work--but that's more him than the course). If you're musically inclined and consider the recording side of things, the Tonmeister could be good.

 

I can't comment on the Ravensbourne course or the qualifications it offers but I can tell you that Ravenbourne generally turns out very good, very qualified people. My background was broadcasting and the company I worked for happily gave work experience placements to people on their broadcast related operations and engineering courses--and hired quite a few of their graduates too. Whether the sound design is as good, I can't say--but it could be worth looking into.

[Pete McCrea]

 

First of heard of this place, I shall take a look online (and then possibly on person) first disadvantage being that the seas in briton are never warm enough to get in to.. :)!

 

Cobblers! Being a graduate of the University of Plymouth (and the Uni's Professional Diving School), I can vouch that the sea was plenty warm enough to swim in, even in early January. That said it was in dry suit with three layers of thermals.... :-)

 

Back OT. As others have said there is no one size fits all. It's a valid point that you need to consider what you want to do when you get fed up of pushing the boxes and rigging the kit, which might well come sooner than age 50.... Having a non industry degree might well be helpful at that point. Whether I'll ever use my Civils Degree to actualy design a harbour is another matter, but it does mean that doors could well be open to me in the future that wouldnt otherwise be.

 

The best thing you can do is weigh up the various options given for you here and try and make your own decision as best you can at this point in your life.

[Simon Lewis]

It might also be worth noting that so far we have happily recommended courses whose entry requirements range from a single A level pass, to three A grade A2s in maths, physics and music plus a grade 7 music performance... ;-)