Dj Dunc Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Ive noticed that a university qualification HELPS to further your prospects of employment, when you are in a situation of two identical people, in knowledge and in attitude, but one has a degree, and the other doesnt. But at the end of the day, from what Ive seen, heard and through personal experience is that people would rather pay someone that will work their proverbials off,even if they dont know everything and learn on the job, than have someone that knows a lot, but doesnt have the work ethic instilled in them. My crew chief said to me something this week which I completely agree with, is that when we are at University, you are lazy, compared to being out in the real world slogging it away. Personally I have found that I have gained work through sheer dedication to the job, with a bit of know-how added in, and that my uni qualification has not made a difference. This is in part due to the fact that I have not gained any knowledge (as such) on the technical front whilst studying, but also through the fact that you are working with other people that are also learning, and so the random little tidbits of knowledge and useful tips is vastly slimmed down than say working as a casual crewmember on a run of Christmas parties. The one thing that has benifitted me is I have gained a few very good contacts through people popping in and requests for crew etc, and then getting links from those jobs. It really does help to go somewhere that has a good arts grounding in the local area, as my place of study is severely lacking in anything useful, and as such it reflects very badly on the work prospects of graduate students, or students wanting extracurricular work. EDIT to ADD: I also would like to point out that I would much happier work for a small per day rate with a professional crew on a professional show, regularly than spend 3 years at university (providing that the company did not use me as cheap labour and not pay a full wage to a crewmember) The amount of industry knowledge I have gained in one month of working with my current employer is vastly greater than to that I have learnt from University. This is in terms of behavior, processes, safety, politics,packing trucks etc not just technical knowledge. I hope this is of some benifit to the discussion Duncan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvenprince Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 But at the end of the day, from what Ive seen, heard and through personal experience is that people would rather pay someone that will work their proverbials off,even if they dont know everything and learn on the job, than have someone that knows a lot, but doesnt have the work ethic instilled in them. My crew chief said to me something this week which I completely agree with, is that when we are at University, you are lazy, compared to being out in the real world slogging it away. I have to disagree with this; if you're on a course as they offer at RWCMD or the like, then pretty much 90% of why they accept you onto the course is your personality; if you slack off and are lazy; you're off the course. Simple as. Your work ethic is crucial, so I'm going to have to argue against the University students don't have the work ethic. I also fail to see how University students are lazy; we regularly pull full days, work shows just like those earning money, and try to earn a wage at local theatres in the evenings or weekends. On top of that, you're gaining life experiences; living away from home, managing your own finances, dealing with complete strangers, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the kid Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I think why people "knock" it is because everyone knows people who have been through it and ended at the same place with less money. Or been through it stopped half way and how have learnt far more than they would at uni. Sure some degrees are going to be more useful than others. 3 cases My friend went to uni to do SM because, and I am sure she wont mind me saying, she didn't have the confidence to go out in to the world ages 18, and she is still not a MASSIVE tech tech mind but she knows a-lot more and is more comfortable. she now works DSM cover in a west end show after 12 months ASM cover on 4 west end shows. I have another friend who dropped out of uni(cant remember where but doing sound) in the 2nd year after doing work experience with a big company, he is now doing #1 house tours doing sound 2 after 2 and a bit years. Uni just was not what he wanted to do, and now he is doing exactly what he wants and has learnt ALOT. I never went to uni, I work full time in a college as a tech because I felt uni would be the wrong direction, the paper work at Btech was enough to kill me let alone doing it at uni. However I work casual at a local arts centre and the TM there occasionally throws me additional work, and I do some freelance here and there. Sure I don't know a MASSIVE amount of sound, but I can run a desk and I hardly play with funky nodding buckets, but I will pick things up, and learn I just would rather have someone at least explain how to do something 1st. Ask me to build you a set from a sketch on a napkin and I will work out how much wood you need give you 3 prices and build it, and if its only white you want I can paint it as well, my art is not that great. I had a student last year who was the perfect candidate for a apprenticeship with a sound company, just the fact he was 17 stopped him. I have not seen anyone so in to sound as he was, he didn't know what a XLR was by the start, but by the end he would build the sound system with no help, then wonder off and tune the drum kit and bass guitar, and couldn't do paperwork for ######. But if he came to me in 5 months and said who shall I go and see, I would list about 10 places and ask some people on here because I know uni would be pointless he would learn some stuff and leave cause the paperwork would annoy him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Robinson Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 When we are at University, you are lazy, compared to being out in the real world slogging it away. But that's something else I disagree with, students are all seen as lazy, but I have 15 hours/week lectures + labs ranging from 1.5 hours/week to 7.5 hours/week. Even then, I work one or two events/week as well, live events being a 13 hour call. I regularly work events that finish close to 4 in the morning and then have a 9 o'clock lecture. But no, I'm still a lazy student... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cedd Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I had a student last year who was the perfect candidate for a apprenticeship with a sound company, just the fact he was 17 stopped him. Now do you actually mean "apprenticeship" there, or do you mean learning on the job? Look at most electrical contractors out there, they take on the vast majority of young apprentices at 16. Indeed my own apprenticeship was only looking for good GCSE results because they were really thinking along the 16 year old lines. I turned up at 18 with good GCSE's and cr*p A levels (a pretty decent indicator that uni wasn't for me - I wasn't thick, but 6th form and me just didn't "click") and got the job. This apprenticeship may well have been a proper one, but they just wanted an 18 year old for whatever reason. What I'm trying to say (to make sure someone doesn't read this and assume if they're under 18 they can't do an apprenticeship) is that for the right apprenticeship, being 16 is no obstacle at all. I will always remain a huge advocate for apprenticeships. Having been involved in the interview process for a new colleague, I know we had a quick glance through the qualifications to make sure the minimum was acheived (HNC in electronic and electrical engineering or old type C&G equivelant) and then had a decent read of their prior experience. Indeed we actually interviewed someody who didn't have the relevant qualification, but had worked in some pretty respectable positions. Once they'd got to interview, we only used their CV's to question them on things they'd claimed to have done. From that point on, qualifications didn't really come into it. Qualifications don't guarantee you'll fit in with the existing team, or the "way we do things round here". I'm biased, and remember that my main salary doesn't come from Theatre, but I also know full well that my technical qualification is more than transferrable into theatre should I want to. I would hope (but haven't tried it - yet!) that a potential employer would see somebody whose training was practical, in a real working environment having to work with real colleagues and real problems. It really is a case of personal preferences. Uni wouldn't have been the right step for me. I'd have bailed long ago! Apprenticeships equally aren't for everybody. Be sure you make good cups of tea (or really bad ones if you don't want to be asked to make them again - trick of the trade) and don't mind having to earn trust and respect from people who've been doing it a lot longer than you. It can be done, my boss is 28 and served his apprenticeship with 2 of the 60 year olds he now manages! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerry davies Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I didn't believe this topic could still be going but Matthew has shot himself in the foot with that last post. If you think that what you say you do in a week is work then stop now. I am very much against stupidly long hours and, as an elderly guy, take lots of days off but at 62 I do more on a working weekend than you do in a week. I am not suggesting that you are lazy but 35/50 hours is barely touching the surface and half of it sat in lectures is not hard work. Five hours sleep is the norm, I would imagine, for most guys here who go through busy periods, it was for me for around thirty years. I am not that busy now but check the time, I'm working on producing a youth event in between writing this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dj Dunc Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 When we are at University, you are lazy, compared to being out in the real world slogging it away. But that's something else I disagree with, students are all seen as lazy, but I have 15 hours/week lectures + labs ranging from 1.5 hours/week to 7.5 hours/week. Even then, I work one or two events/week as well, live events being a 13 hour call. I regularly work events that finish close to 4 in the morning and then have a 9 o'clock lecture. But no, I'm still a lazy student... I didn't believe this topic could still be going but Matthew has shot himself in the foot with that last post. If you think that what you say you do in a week is work then stop now. I am very much against stupidly long hours and, as an elderly guy, take lots of days off but at 62 I do more on a working weekend than you do in a week. I am not suggesting that you are lazy but 35/50 hours is barely touching the surface and half of it sat in lectures is not hard work. Five hours sleep is the norm, I would imagine, for most guys here who go through busy periods, it was for me for around thirty years. I am not that busy now but check the time, I'm working on producing a youth event in between writing this! Matthew, Kerry basically has covered exactly what I was going to say. I am a student at university, and I completely agree that we do naff all, compared to most working professionals in our industry. When I started working for my current employer just before christmas, I did more work in a month than I have all year without question, for example (and this is by no means a hard week for some) I did from 4pm-7am on the 28th of December, had a days rest, and then worked from 8pm-8am on the 30th December, 10am on the 31st December through to 8am on the 1st Jan, had a few days off and was back on the 4th and 5th doing minimum of 14 hours each day alone. Thats only 52 hours of hard labour in 8 days and that would be considered an easy week for some. I think some people need a reality check as to what kind of hours and work a real job in the industry entails, not just a student doing a bit of work here and there. Dunc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the kid Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I had a student last year who was the perfect candidate for a apprenticeship with a sound company, just the fact he was 17 stopped him. Now do you actually mean "apprenticeship" there, or do you mean learning on the job? Look at most electrical contractors out there, they take on the vast majority of young apprentices at 16. Indeed my own apprenticeship was only looking for good GCSE results because they were really thinking along the 16 year old lines. I turned up at 18 with good GCSE's and cr*p A levels (a pretty decent indicator that uni wasn't for me - I wasn't thick, but 6th form and me just didn't "click") and got the job. Learning on the job is quite possibly the better phrase to be using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Robinson Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 My point is not that I do a lot of work compared to the other people on the forum, but that not all students are sitting around doing naff all, all day. Yeah, there's a guy in my flat who has about 4 hours a week, but not everyone is in that position, which is my point. Also, just because you sit down to lectures doesn't mean that they're easy: they just don't involve physical work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiffy Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 My point is not that I do a lot of work compared to the other people on the forum You might want to rephrase that. We can talk when you are regularly (ie over a straight two to three week period) surviving on about 5 hours sleep a night, with all the waking hours taken up by actual work, or the briefest of brief meal breaks, then of course are the 48 hour days (whats that? a legal working week is 48 hours? in a 'normal' job maybe, and so on, so forth, ad infinitum, etc.) ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tolley1466 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 You could try looking at LIPA (Liverpool Institution of Performing Arts). It's a very well funded uni so worth having a look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Robinson Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 My point is not that I do a lot of work compared to the other people on the forum You might want to rephrase that. We can talk when you are regularly (ie over a straight two to three week period) surviving on about 5 hours sleep a night, with all the waking hours taken up by actual work, or the briefest of brief meal breaks, then of course are the 48 hour days (whats that? a legal working week is 48 hours? in a 'normal' job maybe, and so on, so forth, ad infinitum, etc.) ;) Actually, Smiffy, I thought that that phrasing was quite clearly putting me in the 'I'm not doing as much as many people on the forum' category. If you want, I shall rephrase that comment thus: I realise that I don't do as much technical work as the other people on the forum, but I don't see how that somehow qualifies me (along with every other student) as being lazy. Sorry if you took my original phrasing the wrong way (although having re-read it, I understand how it may come across as arrogantly saying that I do more than everyone else on the forum) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingOfTheRubberDucks Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I dont think the degree is the most important part of going to uni it is just A way of learning lots of skills, and getting practice with out the fear of losing someones money. That how I see it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadhippy Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 with out the fear of losing someones money. That how I see it anywayOi thats mine,and every other tax payers money your talking about,if youre going to waste it use your own and give me mine back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiffy Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Actually, Smiffy, I thought that that phrasing was quite clearly putting me in the 'I'm not doing as much as many people on the forum' category. If you want, I shall rephrase that comment No need Matthew. It's me in the wrong. My apologies. In reading your post my brain omitted the 'not'. Cheers Smiffy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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