New installation - sound and lighting cutout?

[Bobbsy]

I've heard of fire officers requiring systems in CLUBS that cut the music and the special effects lighting when the fire alarm is triggered. I can see the logic in this....you don't need 120dB of dance music and lots of flashing lasers when you're trying to clear the room.

 

However, that's a far cry from cutting a theatre sound reinforcement system and stage lighting, for all the reasons previously stated.

 

Bob

[kerry davies]

There are cases, particularly in live music venues, that cut the power when emergency exits are open because of noise issues with neighbours but these have nothing to do with fire regs. It could be that the installer has come across this situation before and has wrongly ascribed it to this venue, it might not be a rip-off scenario.

 

Switching off or leaving power to lights and audio on is subject to your own RA and there are situations which demand turning everything off and situations which demand the opposite. It is all down to each individual RA under RRO 2005 and there is guidance but no specific legislative 'must-have' regarding these questions.

 

E.G. 13.—(1) Where necessary (whether due to the features of the premises, the activity carried on there, any hazard present or any other relevant circumstances) in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons, the responsible person must ensure that—

(a)the premises are, to the extent that it is appropriate, equipped with appropriate fire-fighting equipment and with fire detectors and alarms.

Doesn't tell you what or where or how much, that is up to the 'responsible person'.

Mr Sandy? Mr Sands, surely?

[pscandrett]

[the system]... cuts the sound AND the stage lighting feeds by gently ramping both down to zero

Aside from all of the discussions as to whether it's necessary to cut the power, I'm not sure that ramping power down would do many appliances any good, anyway. Cutting the power to movers, for example, is probably better than (effectively) putting them on a slow fade on a dimmed supply! Would they be responsible for any damage caused to movers/amps/effects/other stuff plugged into the LX/PA supplies?

[adam2]

[the system]... cuts the sound AND the stage lighting feeds by gently ramping both down to zero

Aside from all of the discussions as to whether it's necessary to cut the power, I'm not sure that ramping power down would do many appliances any good, anyway. Cutting the power to movers, for example, is probably better than (effectively) putting them on a slow fade on a dimmed supply! Would they be responsible for any damage caused to movers/amps/effects/other stuff plugged into the LX/PA supplies?

 

I would presume that the intent was to fade DIMMABLE theatre lighting that was connected to a dimmer. Apart from the incompatibility with movers etc, I cant imagine that they intended to sell an additional dimmer for nom dimmed loads.

Likewise regarding sound, I would presume that the intention was to reduce sound levels via an existing or additional fader control, not to gradually reduce the mains supply voltage into the amplifiers.

 

As regards the desireability of such equipment, I see no merit in turning stage lighting off, via a dimmer or otherwise. Turning it all on is equally undesireable since as pointed out above, the totall installed load may well exceed the available supply.

 

Turning off the sound is often a requirement in nightclubs etc, but unlikely to be required in a theatre, unless nightclub type use is expected.

[dmxtothemax]

Most modern fire systems in places like theatres / halls, should have back - up lighting systems,

So using extra lighting should not be required.

In fact if I was on the premises during an fire the first thing I would do is,

Turn all the stage lighting off, and get out quick.

The last thing the fire department would want is extra heat sources like

stage lighting adding to the danger.

Imagine all the extra live wires as well.

TURN IT ALL OFF AND GET OUT!!!

 

Our Chilli dimmers actually do the opposite - you can connect your fire system into them so when the alarm sounds the dimmers fade UP all the channels to ensure there is plenty of light available throughout the space.

[michaelyallop]

I work with stutwo, who created this post. Now the building contractors are saying that there is no specific regulation that states the use of such a device, however they reckon the fire officer would 'get us' on the fact that we need to be able to hear the fire alarm 65db above any other audio in the room. Has anyone else heard of this figure or has it just been plucked out of the air?? They said it was new legislation that had just be changed or amended in the last year.

 

The device in question here is a Guardian CX4, which to me just looks like a limiter with the added feature of a talkback mic and cut off. These are £700, alittle expensive in my mind. Also do the items in question affect the actual overall sound quality?? This al smells of someone with a very little knowledge trying to impose something that they don't really understand.

 

Oh, and does anyone know of a cheaper alternative?

[ramdram]

Another builder?

[Paul TC]

we need to be able to hear the fire alarm 65db above any other audio in the room. Has anyone else heard of this figure or has it just been plucked out of the air?? They said it was new legislation that had just be changed or amended in the last year.

Equally plucking out of air "5 dB above any background noise which persists for more than 30 seconds." from this site - Fire Alarm Company Website And that was first google result. 65dB above any other level is probably unreachable without causing physical harm, probably means 65dBA as an absolute level which I have seen referenced elsewhere.

[Simon Lewis]

I would simply ask the contractor to quote chapter and verse. Usually, "new regulations" translates as "changed in the last 10 years" and the figures you have stated do not seem to ring true! Certainly, the alarm needs to be loud enough to be heard, but "65dB above any other audio" would require levels that cause instant acoustic trauma. As there have been various revisions to standards, I can't quote figures without searching, but I think the alarm is meant to be ~5dB above ambient and that the 65dB figure is the minimum level at the bedhead for alarms in hotels?

 

edit - beaten to it, but we agree on the figures!

[michaelyallop]

It didn't really ring true with me either, but I'm guessing that is the reason for this volume reducing kit quoted.

[kerry davies]

Your current contractor is lying to you and that is unacceptable. Firstly he says you "must" have his system, then he says you "must" subject your punters to extreme and hazardous noise conditions but there is no "specific regulation" covering this.

 

So far he is correct in one thing only and that is that there is no "specific legislation" and contrary to what DMX wrote every case must be decided on its' merits. Some situations demand total electrical isolation and others demand that power be maintained because of site-specific conditions. Disabled access/hoists/hydraulics etc. That is why the "responsible person" decides.

 

His suggestion that the Fire Officer would "get you" is frankly ludicrous. Have you talked to the relevant officer? He might get upset knowing that his name and position were being used to sell stuff.

 

As long as the RRO applies to your building then the licensing authority should not make conditions in your licence with regard to fire. "Responsibility for complying with the Order rests with the ‘responsible person’. In a workplace, this is the employer and any other person who may have control of any part of the premises, e.g. the occupier or owner." No mention of fire alarm contractors or anyone else there, then.

 

He is thinking of the "accepted" minimum level of 65/75 in total for fire alarms in sleeping areas or the "guideline" level of 5 dB above ambient. Maybe he simply cannot read? http://www.firesafe.org.uk/html/fsequip/firealrm.htm

[Brian]

Have you talked to the relevant officer?

Excellent advice. They are usually very approachable - your local service will have someone with a job title like 'Fire Protection Officer' listed on their website. Their advice is free and unbiased. I've been in correspondence with, and have also met on site, my local officer and have found it very useful.

[MarkPAman]

+1 for contacting your Fire Protection Officer.

 

I think every time I've done that, the result has been that we saved money.

[Brian]

I think every time I've done that, the result has been that we saved money.

Absolutely. My recent contact with the fire officer has been to agree the spec for a venue's fire alarm system. Having done so I've shaved 40% off the quotes received from a number of alarm companies by only fitting the number and type of sensors really needed.

[paulears]

It amazes me how officials in almost every area are used as prosecution afterwards rather than advice before. As the ultimate authority, all my own dealings with these people have been positive. The Fire Officers actually like being asked for advice, as do those from the licensing and health agencies we often have to deal with. Very often, they fall over backwards to 'fit' legislation around your specific problems. It's so easy for unscrupulous or even devious salespeople to use them as the hammer to flog things you don't need or want!