Another fire alarm question

[Dodgecaliber]

If a double knock system is activated, sounders screaming for well over 20 seconds, am I correct in saying it is against the rules, perhaps illegal to silence the alarm once people have started evacuating?

[themadhippy]

Dont know about the legality,but from a common sense point of view if the alarm stops people are going to think the emergency. is over and return to what there doing

[kerry davies]

PM sent

[paulears]

Moderation: Was it exciting?

 

Just a thought, but 'PM sent' is usually used when say somebody from ZXY Lighting wishes to say something that would break the forum rules, but wants people to know they did answer - perhaps because their company was mentioned. If people wish to send a private message, please do so - but there's no need to tell us, because it's like hearing half a conversation, you want to know more........

 

If you have good advice please feel free to share it, if it's not public, then do it privately - but please avoid the half-way house.

Paul

[danburns]

Dont know about the legality,but from a common sense point of view if the alarm stops people are going to think the emergency. is over and return to what there doing

 

I know this isn't necessarily how most people see it, but I've been told by 2 different fire officers in 2 different counties never to go back into the building just because the alarm's stopped (unless you've been given express instructions to do so) because the reason the alarm may have stopped could be due to a fault, or as a result of the fire. Whether or not this is true or a widespread belief, I can see the sense in it (even if just to be able to get everyone back in to the building safely and in an orderly fashion).

 

Still amuses me how many people will phone through when the fire alarm goes off asking if the red flashing light and loud noise next to the sign saying fire alarm means the fire alarm is going off...D'oh!

 

 

I also think in the situation that Dodgecaliber suggests, it might have been easier to complete the evac (regardless of if it was a false alarm) and then send them back into the building, especially if there was a lot of people in the building. This is just my personal point of view - I am not a fire officer!

[Jivemaster]

Depends on the fire alarm procedure. In my current (non ents) place of work our alarms go off in stages and certain people have certain actions even though the alarm centre may be 200m away.

 

With a single centre alarm then consider if 500 people were trying to get out through the same doors as the first 500 were trying to get back IN. Best practise in this case may well be all out then all in again. But it's not my building or risk assessment.

[kerry davies]

Apologies, Paul, pedantic not exciting! Wanted to get some clarity, it ain't simple.

The fire service definition of "double-knock" is as follows:

An automated detector signals an alert.

A person calls 999 or the automated dialler does.

The fire service asks, or rings the keyholder to ask, them to check whether the alarm is false or not, and then to ring back with confirmation before they respond as an emergency, hence two 999 calls or double-knock.

The reason being that one estimate I've seen for false alarms from automated detector systems is over 98%.

 

Some facilities managers have adopted the term to mean that for every system alert a designated member of staff checks for false alarms and equipment faults before the brigade is called out, thus saving one of the two 999 calls. In this case evacuation still always takes place before or whilst verification takes place. Internal knock followed by 999 knock.

So three slightly differing interpretations of the term"double-knock".

 

Some alarm companies call what the British Standards Institute term "co incidence systems" double-knock, and these are the ones becoming common in theatres whereby a zone can be isolated because of smoke/pyro etc. So that if a detector signals in that zone it may indicate on the panel but not trigger full alarms. If another zone "coincidentally" triggers then a full alarm sounds and indicates as the system as a whole is still operational (details vary). First knock from stage isolated, second knock (from tea room?) triggers alarms.

 

Whichever "double knock" it is, the standard procedure should be that if an alarm sounds everyone evacuates except the designated responsible person/s. That person/s should follow the procedures laid down in the fire RA for the premises. The fire service does not have a standard opinion, normally, on the silencing of alarms other than to stress total evacuation BUT they are specific in that alarms must NOT be reset following a call-out until after the brigade has given an all-clear.

An audible alarm should never be silenced during evacuation as the resultant confusion and crowd management difficulties pose serious hazards. It also raises the danger which Dan/Hippy point up that unless every alarm is treated seriously and procedures followed, people will ignore the next real one (and fry!). If anyone other than the designated person silences an alarm then disciplinary measures of some sort should be taken. And, yes, nobody should re-enter after an alarm until the designated responsible person/s or the fire service has given the all-clear.

 

Since the fire reform regs were passed there is much more onus on premises owners and managers to complete fire RA's for each specific building. It is not AFAIK strictly illegal to do what the Dodge has experienced but as courts can call for production of RAs as legal documents and no fire/licensing/EH officer would ever pass an RA that allows for alarm silencing during evacuation then it would, almost certainly, be found to be a culpable action by a judge.

I don't remember reading of any case law, YET, with regard to the RA aspects of the Reform Regs but there may be a solicitor/fire safety expert out there who can advise????

[Dodgecaliber]

An example that has just come to mind, a few years back when I worked as a senior guard in a large complex in Glasgow, some 7500 people were evacuated one day which (along side our plans) meant 6 fire appliances and numerous police vehicles had to attend due to the buildings being surrounded by main roads (which had to be closed to allow people to get far away from the building)

 

One of the security officers I was on shift with verbally asked if we should silence the alarms....

 

7500 people walking in the same direction trying to get to a point of refuge, to be accounted for.

 

With every last fire warden asking me when they can get back in the building, to dealing with the emergency services, to nearly breaking my ankle climbing 8 flights to reset a "class change" panel (One that must be reset before the main system) - I now fully believe that if you hear the bell, run like hell and don't go back in till told to do so.

 

In the case above, a call centre was part of the building. Someone spread rumour and when I saw someone go back in, I headed straight down to find the entire workforce back taking phone calls. The alarm still ringing.

 

I can tell you they were swiftly out their seats and the last to be allowed back in. I never did find out what my superiors did to them.....

[pritch]

In the case above, a call centre was part of the building. Someone spread rumour and when I saw someone go back in, I headed straight down to find the entire workforce back taking phone calls. The alarm still ringing.

 

...which sort of ties in with what I was about to say. If you've got people on the way out of the building, and the alarm stops, what are they likely to do? Go right back to where they were when the alarm went off, and carry on as if nothing happened!

[Tom]

Some alarm companies call what the British Standards Institute term "co incidence systems" double-knock, and these are the ones becoming common in theatres whereby a zone can be isolated because of smoke/pyro etc. So that if a detector signals in that zone it may indicate on the panel but not trigger full alarms. If another zone "coincidentally" triggers then a full alarm sounds and indicates as the system as a whole is still operational (details vary). First knock from stage isolated, second knock (from tea room?) triggers alarms.

 

This is nearly, but not quite, how our system (one which I thought was common in theatres) works and which we have always described as a Double Knock system:

When in "Performance Mode", the triggering of a single smoke or heat point anywhere in the building causes the system to go into Alarm but not Full Evacuation. The Duty manager or Fire Officer is notified (by pager), as are ushers and technical staff (by strobes). The DM or Fire Officer investigates and can cancel the alarm. If a second smoke or heat point is triggered (the second knock) the system goes into Full Evacuation. If the alarm isn't cleared within 150" it also goes into Full Evac.

The Brigade are called automatically at the first knock I believe and we regularly have to have arguments with them about why we haven't evacuated. However, as soon as we explain our system and tell them it is as per our Fire RA they tend to calm down.

 

Isolating an area for Smoke or Pyro takes them off line completely and they do not show as triggered.

 

Our policy is that once the Evac commences (Alarms Sound) we proceed with the full evacuation, regardless.

 

T

[tempsc]

Hi all.

 

I hope you don't mind me coming in on this thread. I have a query which is related to the last post on this thread (sort of! )

 

My church has a full fire alarm system installed and has recently had a false alarm (due to a large amount of steam affecting a detector). We succesfully evacuated the premises and all was OK. However, some people have started to ask if we should have a full scale fire drill twice a year, or, if we should start off each service with evacuation procedures etc etc. This thing is growing arms and legs!! Personally speaking I don't favour a frequent fire drill or a notice of fire procedures before each service. I have quoted the fact that when I attend the cinema, a play or a gig, I've never had to do a fire drill or listened to a notice as to what we should do in the evnt of etc. Can someone clarify the positin on this whole matter as frankly, I'm getting confused.

 

Tks

tempsc

[sleah]

I'd suggest you contact your local fire officer and ask his advice :D

A twice yearly fire drill may only need to be for the staff and other regular workers/volunteers. It would be a good idea anyway to make sure whoever is working knows the fire procedure. You don't want everyone running round like headless chickens whenever the alarm goes off! :o

[Simon Lewis]

tempsc,

 

The need for fire drill, and indeed the type of alarm system should be linked to the building type and use. Many public spaces are now required to fit voice alarm systems, on the basis that users are not familiar with the space and need clear instructions for evacuation.

 

Where a space has frequent users (school, office etc.) then a normal alarm is sufficient, since users should be familiar with it, but you will want an agreed evacuation procedure in place. In order to ensure that this procedure is suitable and sufficient, it makes sense to test it.

 

My church does just this, as on a given Sunday we may have children's groups upstairs, wheelchair users downstairs and a rock'n'roll band playing in the worship area. Carrying out a periodic fire drill (perhaps once a year) helps us to fine tune the evacuation procedure, and also helps the congregation know a) where they could exit (rather than heading for the entrance door) and b) that a system is in place for the safe evacuation of others in the building (so that parents do not try and fetch their children etc.).

 

Whenever there is a greater than usual number of visitors or people unfamiliar with the building, we will provide a brief safety announcement (fire exits etc.) at the start of the session.

 

Simon

[tempsc]

Simon / Simon. Thanks guys. That's great advice.

 

A query direct to Simon Lewis. Can you tell me when you have done a fire drill on a Sunday please? We have four services for example. Would you do one for each, at the beginning or the end of a typical service. We do do a short notice when we have a concert or other and have a lot of visitors. Your building sounds just like ours as we have a bit of a rabbit warren in terms of facilities and 3-400 people all over the place. I have been looking into voice annunciators too as I feel that they would help over and above the normal fire bell. I would also like to hook into the PA system and ther powerpoint system to display a slide giving more info and evacuation routes if possible. I must say that I like the idea of the 'performance mode' system as posted by Tom, as this would allow a simple method of fire investigation or evaluation before going to full scale evacuation. Finally, as I posted earlier, just what is the position regarding fire drills and evacuations in theatres, arenas, cinemas etc and can't we mimic those?

 

Thanks again

tempsc

[Dodgecaliber]

Whoa!

 

As we say in Glasgow - Haud the bus!

 

Don't go putting messages on screens - There is no time! When you hear the bell, run like hell!

 

I don't see a big problem with having a message over and above the bells - I can even give you several of them free of charge. Just get a MD player or something similar on standby.

 

I would say that voice alarms is something im in favour of and I've got a fair bit of knowledge of them - I used to be a senior guard in a building with 44 local fire panels, 4 meaty master panels and 296 voice alarm sounders with independant messages and wireless over-ride, along with status message sounders for the assembly points and message controllers for each zone and cause of acuation! We literatly had GENT onsite EVERY day!

 

The only other option would be to replace the bells with voice alarm sounders?

 

Again if you want copies of messages let me know or a bit of further advice off the forum on your particular venue.

 

Back to the origional post.......

 

I wouldn't bother with tips for evacuation at every mass. Most people who go to church go to the same one, same day, same time.

The rules are that the evacuation signal must be of a similar noise throughout the building and that most places must do a full drill at LEAST twice a year. However, test once a week for 5 - 10 mins by doing a building walk (or a one man test depending on your system) and a full drill once every four months.

 

 

Again contact me off the forum if you need further advice.

 

Dodge