april 2008 new sound regs

[toytown]

The amusing thing is on the HSE website on their "key" to dB ratings a bar at a nightclub comes in at 100-105dB.......

 

Getting that down to 85dB is going to be fun or all bar staff/bar support will end up wearing plugs.

 

I must admit I do take my hearing seriously - I have worked in clubs now for about 16 years and for the last 8 years or so I have worn earplugs after doing a DnB night with about 20k of Thunder Ridge where my ears rang for about 3 days. The only workable solution for clubs now will be to have the bars in separate areas to the main dance areas however how long will it take for the HSE to put limitations on maximum exposure levels to the general public. The moment the maximum levels on dance floors is set to 85dB will be the death of the industry - or all the general public will have to wear earplugs - add that to concerts and you have a total disaster.

[safetyman]

I can see that from 1st April Councils will have new powers to check sound levels and hearing protection at all venues in their area. Most venues will not know/have done anything about the new regs which will be ok if the Councils ignore them too !

However, if the 'man from the Council 'turns up at a gig or concert and shuts it down, there will be ramifications.......

[Jivemaster]

I have to say that some places are shooting themselves in both feet, by either extreme attitude.

 

I was playing at Warren House a really nice conference and banqueting venue between Richmond Park and Kingston and the manager put quite a good logging sound meter right in front of me and kept checking that I didnt excede 85dB - I couldnt balance the guests need for a disco with the venue's need for 85dB - Massive complaints and litigation ensued, relating to the venue refusing to allow the disco that they had arranged and charged for! All this because the venue took the easy way of protecting the in room bar staff by keeping the level below the then limit.

 

Several major clubs just run 105+dB for hours regardless of the regs or sense.

 

One bar group actually had it in their terms of employment that they wouldnt accept liability for health damage due to noise and smoke etc - Probably ultra vires but demonstrates the actual attitude.

[dosxuk]

If councils do decide to start clamping down it could be interesting. In our venue (and I'm sure there are plenty of others) you can't get a reliable reading of the music sound level behind the bars, as the people queuing are louder (and nearer 90db than 85db). Are we going to have to put "Sssshhh!" signs up on the way in as well as the way out?

[Simon Lewis]

.....the manager put quite a good logging sound meter right in front of me and kept checking that I didnt excede 85dB

 

Was this SPL or Leq? If it was the former, then he's not taking exposure time / level into account.... Leq is a reasonable approach though!

 

 

Simon

[niclights]

Personally I've been wearing plugs for years. We've made then available to customers, contractors & employees on request for as long as I can remember and I purchased higher quality ones specifically for bar staff a good few years back. But do they wear them? No.

 

This I see as the major problem. I repeatedly advise they should wear yet most say "I don't like them", "they're not comfortable", "I can't hear the customers". Considering I use the same type myself I certainly do not agree with the last two. Just something to get used to, that's all.

 

So, is it enough that we advise, instruct and provide? I want them to be safe but I see no way to fully enforce this. What happens if there is an inspection and vulnerable staff are found not to be wearing? Perhaps warning signs in these areas is sufficient to show we have done our bit?

 

Also, maybe it is worth discussing the various protection products available here?

[Simon Lewis]

... you can't get a reliable reading of the music sound level behind the bars, as the people queuing are louder (and nearer 90db than 85db). ....

 

This is where dosemeters really help. You are concerned with the worker's total noise exposure, not whether it's music or shouting - both can damage the ear over time.

[safetyman]

It only goes top prove that you can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.........

 

You can only supply employees with the ear protection, or supply your own if self-employed but there does not seem to be any way of making sure that they are worn. Maybe its time for the contracts to stipulate that ear protection must be worn, under the new regs, with loss of earnings by the individual employees for not doing so ?

[Andrew C]

Just like steelies and hard hats on building sites. The employer must ensure that PPE that is needed (as the last recourse) to ensure safety is worn. Likewise the employee is obliged in law to wear whatever PPE his employer mandates.

[Jivemaster]

.....the manager put quite a good logging sound meter right in front of me and kept checking that I didnt excede 85dB

 

Was this SPL or Leq? If it was the former, then he's not taking exposure time / level into account.... Leq is a reasonable approach though!

 

 

Simon

 

I wasn't party to the settings of the meter so I don't know the details, However as the only period recorded was the actual disco then SPL seems more likely than Leq. Their attitude was "if it never excedes the first action level they have done their bit" They had no dose calculations!

[pisquee]

One thing I would like to mention, is that these "new" sound regs coming into force, are not actually new. The regs have been around a couple of years in general for the majority of other employers. The entertainment industry was given these 2 years to work out how they were going to achieve them, make it workable, make it apply in a usful way, as in our industry noise is an integral part of the product, whereas in a factory it is a byproduct. Part of the problem seems to be that a lot of employers haven't used the couple of years they'd been given to even think or conside what they are going to do, and will probably only start to think what they are going to do in April.

[Simon Lewis]

One thing I would like to mention, is that these "new" sound regs coming into force, are not actually new.....

 

Furthermore, although the Control of Noise at Work Regulations (2005) came into force for all employers in April 2006 (except the Entertainment sector and one or two very limited get-outs) all workers have been subject to the Noise at Work (1989) regulations since January 1st 1990.

This includes the entertainment sector, who are still bound by the earlier regulations.

In the earlier regs, the lower action level (LAep,d) was 85dB, the upper action level 90dB and the Peak action level 140dB.

 

Simon

[Just Some Bloke]

Two points:

 

1) If the bar staff are wearing hearing protection, how loud will I have to shout to order a drink? Surely that's going to give me laryngitis? Can I claim for that?

 

2) Imagine the situation in court: "I suffered hearing damage due to excessive noise levels in bars/clubs. The owners clearly knew the levels were excessive because they insisted that all their staff wear hearing protection. As they did not insist on the punters wearing hearing protection they were clearly failing in their duty of care to their clients. I therefore claim damages agaianst the owners."

 

The only way around this wold be to turn the levels down Why don't they? Because people like it loud and if you're not loud eneough for them they'll go somewhere else that is.

[MarkPAman]

Two points:

 

1) If the bar staff are wearing hearing protection, how loud will I have to shout to order a drink? Surely that's going to give me laryngitis? Can I claim for that?

 

I usually find that in a noisy environment I can hear people talking to me better when wearing earplugs (ever the cheap disposable ones) than without.

 

2) Imagine the situation in court: "I suffered hearing damage due to excessive noise levels in bars/clubs. The owners clearly knew the levels were excessive because they insisted that all their staff wear hearing protection. As they did not insist on the punters wearing hearing protection they were clearly failing in their duty of care to their clients. I therefore claim damages against the owners."

 

There are still many things that you are allowed to do that are hazardous to your health. For the moment at least, going to a loud gig remains one of them. The act is designed to cover people who are at work.

 

There is nothing to stop you using protection if you want to when you go to a gig. I often do. I have worked also at gigs where earplugs have been made available to the audience. Take up has been about 1 - 2%, and most of them have been in the upper age range of those attending.

 

The only way around this wold be to turn the levels down. Why don't they? Because people like it loud and if you're not loud enough for them they'll go somewhere else that is.

 

Very true.

[safetyman]

I gather that the sound level on the main stage at Glastonbury was turned right down this year for around 5 minutes, following complaints from neighbours. However this did not reduce the overall volume of noise( so it was not the cause of the complaints ) and the organisers had to raise the volume back up to what it was to avert a riot... Yes the punters have got used to a certain level of noise and will settle for nothing less.