april 2008 new sound regs

[safetyman]

Hi,

 

Just joined this forum tonight and I am looking for any technical advice you can give me on the above regs, please ?

 

I am a part-time DJ and , for my sins,and deal with H & S matters for a DJ association.

 

I am particularly interested in the technical aspects of protecting the hearing of all those members of staff, inc the DJ, attending mobile disco's.

 

Where is the best place to measure the sound level( centre of the dance-floor, back of the room/bar area, DJ console/position, certain distance from the main speakers etc, etc, to provide the best protection for staff and DJ for the new Legislation next April ?

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[Rob_Beech]

Have a quick look around, using the search function which will find you some good background reading, though I expect people will also be happy to post things here aswell.

[Mr.Si]

Hi Mr. Safetyman and welcome.

 

I've done a few workplace noise assessments in my day-job (acoustics and noise control consultant - (hopefully not for much longer) ).

What we tend to do is actually follow the person around with a sound level meter close to their ear while simultaneously trying to stay out of their way while they're getting on with their job in hand. It's crude, but it gets a general idea.

 

Others, and much more sensible (IMO) is issuing employees with personal dose meters which they wear during their shift - a mic near the ear and a recording unit which then measures the sound exposure that the employee is being subjected to.

 

The best place for information is probably the HSE website's Noise section.

 

An initial 2p

 

Si

[pisquee]

Before you get to the hearing protection stage, you should be removing staff from the noise exposed areas that don't need to be there, position speakers in a way that they don't shoot at the bar staff but still on the dancefloor etc.

Once you have measured the SPLs of the room at various points the staff work in, and assesed the does meters, work out ways of rotaing that move staff between noisy and quiet rooms to take their average exposure for the shift/week/month down.

In any H+S review you should be trying to remove or reduce the risk before getting to the PPE level, once you've done this, if there is still risk then you start applying the PPE. SO o all you can to reduce or eliminate the risks to staff, and once those avenues have been explored is the point you start handing your staff hearing protection, does meters and getting them regular hearing tests.

[safetyman]

Thanks Guys, much appreciated.

 

The problem with the HSE is that the current proposals only cater for larger concerts of the Hyde Park/Wembley size and scale, and nothing at all for the smaller DJ orientated average venues. Be it wedding or party etc both inside or in marquees in the garden, all of modest size compared to the above, the problem is less to do with the bar staff and more to do with protecting the dj. Very few venues of this type have bar staff actually in the same room, unless its a pub of course. So who is responsible for noise protection, the venue owner, the hirer/promoter or the dj ? The HSE site is not clear on this point, and I have asked them for clarification, pointing out the above. To my surprise the working party have asked me for help in drawing up a para or two to cover dj's and smaller venues, hence the post.

Having noise dose meters attached to staff( whether it be bar staff or dj's ) is a good idea, but simply not practical for most venues on the basis that the dj may only do it once or twice in the season. Ok, so its essential for the bar staff if/when in the room but this is outside the control of the dj. I suppose every dj could purchase a noise dose meter and wear it at every gig, but that would add hugely to the overall costs I suspect( I am not aware of their actual cost ). Similarly the venue owner could do the same for the bar staff etc, adding hugely to the costs. What is needed is a simple, practical approach that is cost effective for all those involved in the mobile dj market.

Any further thoughts etc on this from you would be most welcome.

 

Cheers.

 

Ian

[pisquee]

The new regs (as far as I know) are aimed at protecting employees, and so in the case of bars it is up to the employer of the bar staff to protect his employees (i.e. duty of care) Unless the DJ is also an employee of the bar, or a contractor is the question. And I am not sure how the new regs relate to this. If the DJ is self-employed, then he should have to protect himself, along with the bar management having systems/protocols in place for the DJ to not deafen the staff.

[safetyman]

Thanks for your thoughts, very enlightening.

 

I had a chance to speak with a member of the HSE working party on the noise regs today. Seems that they have put all their energy in to protection of employees at major events and, until now, have completely forgotten to deal with ordinary folk at the more usual smaller private events which outnumber the larger ones several hundred to one, in my estimation.

They are looking at venues providing their staff with earplugs to be worn at all times when either serving behind a bar, or collecting glasses etc in the room where the music is playing. Also the dj would need to wear them too, provided by either the employer or themselves if self-employed. It has still not been decided whether the sound level in the room, building or marquee will be under the control of the venue or the dj. But I suppose if everyone working in the room is wearing hearing protection, then sound level will become less of a problem, and may ultimately be decided by the hirer and audience.

 

Cheers.

 

Ian

[david.elsbury]

But if everyone in the room is wearing hearing protection, why not just turn it down and negate the need for the hearing protection?

[foh_al]

But if everyone in the room is wearing hearing protection, why not just turn it down and negate the need for the hearing protection?

 

'Cause the audience like it loud, and they're not covered under the regs.

[Shez]

'Cause the audience like it loud, and they're not covered under the regs.

 

But under the next revision, the govt will decide they need to protect these numpties from themselves too...

"20K PA sir? Ooh no, you won't be allowed that, it'll be far too loud!"

:D

[paulears]

Well I may be wrong (often am) but none of the venues I have been in in the last few months have even heard of the new regs, or if they have, assumed it had nothing at all to do with them. I think it's going to be one bit of legislation that just gets lost. The recording requirement is not really workable in a venue with multiple staff rostering - keeping track will be almost impossible.

 

One venue I have in mind has staff who hardly speak English, they can't complete their clocking in/out cards properly, have no grasp of safety standards, so will just mess up any system put in place unless somebody runs the system for them.

[Simon Lewis]

Well I may be wrong (often am) but none of the venues I have been in in the last few months have even heard of the new regs, or if they have, assumed it had nothing at all to do with them. I think it's going to be one bit of legislation that just gets lost.

 

The original Noise at Work regs were pretty comprehensively ignored. As usual, some larger venues will take the new Control fo Noise at Work regs seriously (for example, the tech crew at the Sage in Gateshead were talking of dosemeters, rotas and PPE!) but the vast majority will work in real or feigned ignorance.

 

Simon

[foh_al]

But under the next revision, the govt will decide they need to protect these numpties from themselves too...

"20K PA sir? Ooh no, you won't be allowed that, it'll be far too loud!"

 

...and a small part of me welcomes that day!

[Andrew Edwards]

Based upon the figures that I have seen here, it doesn't take much to put you over the limit. They mention a (so called) typical week of

 

2 events (2-3hr performance + sound check etc.) [although surely bands tend to be consistently louder than your musical theatre]

2 days of warehouse work (I guess this could be fit up, maintenance etc. not exactly clear)

1 day in the office

 

This is stated to be above the upper action level (85dBA) and in fact right on the upper action limit (87dBA). It factors in all the other noise that you may encouter during a day such as traffic noise and your own tv/home cinema.

 

It mentions that it is important to time the wearing of the hearing protection to reduce the dose below safe limits. In this case during the performance! It actually says that 'Steve the sound engineer' must wear hearing protection during the system check, sound check and event.

 

<sarcastic analogy>Ok Mr. Lampy we need you to light our show but you have to do it while wearing these frosted spectacles</sarcastic analogy>

 

I haven't actually done the exact calculations but it is rather looking like you will have to wear ear protection for your entire week to allow you to be able to not wear them during an event if you do 3 or more a week.

 

It is indeed madness, however, I do know a drummer with tinitus/hyperacusis and it is torture!

I also know a casual engineer who works in an industrial setting during the day. He did not even realise he had hearing damage until he did a noise analysis of his work place. They had some particular frequencies which corresponded to ones he had noticed he always seemed to have issues with when doing his sound engineering. Of course it is relatively easier to deal with industrial noise which is essential not intrinsic to performing the job.

 

As far as I can see the only solution is staff rotation on those who cannot practically wear hearing protection, which will inevitably end up costing more. Yet another nail in the 'small to mid size venue' coffin.

 

As for DJs, well, before the recent reduction in action levels, I saw a HSE document which put the maximum amount of time you should be in the average night club unprotected before a risk of permenant hearing damage to 25 seconds!

 

I can't quite understand why they have concentrated on large venues. I find them to be more balanced than smaller ones. I can understand about concert halls to some extent. I would not want to sit right next to a full brass section.

 

I'm doing amatuer panto at the moment, we had the cubs and guides in the other night. Crikey can they make a noise. I know it's only transient but but it certainly was more painful the the loudest wails from Nazareth (10k PA - 340 seat venue/10m by 12m stage).

 

Sorry I've meandered somewhat from the topic.

 

My advice is if you are an employee and feel you are at risk and the management is doing nothing about it, get a device called the Annoyatron. It is a very small device which emits an annoying beep to be hidden in a office. Apparently they are very difficult to locate. After the boss has either trashed their office looking for it or indeed gone stir crazy, ask them if they would like to have that feeling all the time. Then point out your issues!

 

If you are self employed, it's up to you to protect yourself.

 

Oh yes and dosemeters vary in price, some give a more detailed analysis than others. But can you really put a price on your hearing if it is your livelyhood.

 

The legislation verses potential risk is somewhat of a double edged sword....as it were....you know what I mean.

[mostlyharmless]

Whatever the new laws say, I will still advise anyone who asks me to wear ear plugs.

 

The only exception is the FOH engineer, who may go to a quiet place, take the plugs out, then come back to mix the band.

 

Unforonatly if you are doing this every night, then I would be worried that their hearing is being damaged. Although, if they are doing the same band then show, what would people say on wearing musicans plugs past the soundcheck/first song stage?