Rescue statements for tallescopes

[SlackerWill]

Has anyone been involved in writing a rescue statement for a tallescope?

 

I am looking for any ideas on how you would rescue someone from the top of the tallescope if the un-thinkable was to happen and you had someone unconscious. Our H&S man has implemented that when we use ours not only are we not allowed to move it with someone up in the bucket, but a harness must be worn. I’m thinking that the harness could be utilised as part of a rescue situation. Any thoughts?

 

I am not interested in people moaning about the usage of the scope (we all know how it should be used) I’m just interested in a practical solution to this problem.

 

Will.

[paulears]

What purpose does the wearing a harness satisfy? There are rarely any structures suitable for clipping to, that are suitable for the shock load of someone falling. Getting into the basket is awkward enough without the constriction of the harness - and please don't tell me your H&S man wants you to attach yourself to the scope?

 

Writing a rescue statement is going to be very difficult because in the unlikely event of getting someone unconscious out of the basket, you need to get up there, and you can't use the tallescope itself for access as it's not rated for two people! So - you'd need another one, or at least some other method of reaching the basket without loading the scope. There are plenty of methods I can think of to do it in an emergency, but most wouldn't be that suitable to put in writing.

 

Sounds like yet another case of H&S people out of their comfort zone, competence wise.

[SlackerWill]

Yes Paul, indeed we are required to be attached to the scope. As there is no cage around the ladder we have to clip on/off as you climb to the top and once inside the bucket. It is very awkward however rules are rule no matter how silly we believe it to be.

 

As part of the Risk assessment for our scope a provision for rescue must be included. Bering in mind that if someone happens to fall off the ladder or out of the bucket while harnessed and is unable to help themselves we have 10mins to rescue them!

 

The only idea I can think of is to drop a rated safety line from the grid and manually lower them. Not ideal!!!!

 

Will

[Seano]

Yes Paul, indeed we are required to be attached to the scope. As there is no cage around the ladder we have to clip on/off as you climb to the top and once inside the bucket. It is very awkward however rules are rule no matter how silly we believe it to be.

 

Your so called alleged "Health and Safety" person is an idiot, and silly doesn't begin to describe this ludicrous counter-productive safety 'rule'. This is a much more pressing problem than your lack of a rescue plan.

 

Sean

x

 

ps: Why the big shouty font? Moderation: Fixed

[paulears]

Yep - your H&S person has you doing something quite dangerous. You should NEVER attach yourself to a structure likely to fall. Clipping to a free standing tower, tallescope or A-frame ladder is not adding safety - it's making it more dangerous. If the structure falls, you do not, under any circumstances, want to be attached to it!

 

 

Your post indicates you climb the ladder using the clip on and harness? Tallescopes have open ladders by design. Ladders that are either fixed or inclined by design, that require clipped on climbing for safety are normally much longer, and have travelling clip on points. On a tallescope, what do you clip on to, as you climb? There are no structural points designed for this to be done. There is no requirement by the Health and Safety Exec that requires you to do this - in fact, Id go so far as to say that you have increased the risk of an accident by doing this. As I said higher up - how do you get into the basket with a harness on?

 

Sorry - but this is classic over-reaction to a fairly simple task/process. Whoever dreamed it up seems to have had no industry experience of using tallescopes - or indeed any theatre style access equipment. How come your venue have such weird self-devised rules? Surely as a proper venue, this working practice should have been discussed with your BECTU rep - or other outside body?

[Andrew C]

I can see ONE reason for wearing the harness (NOT clipped to the 'Scope) and that would be to make a rescue easier. It would make it a lot easier to lift a casualty up and out of the basket, thence down, providing that there is access above to winch, and some way to reach the basket to clip him on. Also requires the casualty not to be twisted into the basket or injured spinally.

 

I doubt your H&S droid has thought this through...

[indyld]

and please don't tell me your H&S man wants you to attach yourself to the scope?

 

Just to chuck a spanner/point of order in, the IPAF (not tallescopes, I know) recommends that where harness are worn they MUST be attached to the access equipment, and not an "external" structure, using the rated attachment points. Or they did last time I took my ticket, anyway. Can't lay hands on the docs at the mo but I am sure someone on the BR can.

 

This rule was relating to being dragged out of the basket when moving while still clipped off (again, not 'scopes). The theory goes that correctly used access equipment, including 'scopes, do not fall over anyway.

 

Perhaps this is part of the same "thinking" (?). As there is no fall arrest system designed into a tallescope for either asc/desc or attachment points in the basket then presumably the manufacturers do not advise the use of any.

 

Perhaps you could remind someone that the answer to all H&S multiple choice exam questions is nearly always: D)Follow the manufacturers guidelines.

 

Not

 

Z) Make up your own rules based on some kind of half ar***d assesment of a work system you have little knowledge of.

 

//Editted for afterthought: Perhaps if the unconscious operator was harnessed into the basket, you could rescue them by getting four stage crew to "fold" the scope with them still in it - hehe.

[Andrew C]

This rule was relating to being dragged out of the basket when moving while still clipped off (again, not 'scopes).

So it is, as I understand it, "Work Restraint", rather than "Fall Arrest". Makes sense too, but clipping to a light weight glorified ali ladder doesn't.

[SlackerWill]

Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, however name calling certainly is counter-productive and can never solve a problem.

 

I certainly have never commented whether or not I actually agree with this desistion however I have a responsibility to adhere to his rulings or in his own words “face prosecution”. We are a council run venue and as I keep getting told “we must be seen to be exemplar”.

 

Paul, our harness is a double lanyard type. The runs are used to clip onto during assent/descent and we then have to clip into the bucket itself.

 

It seems once again a can of worms is being opened regarding scopes!

 

 

 

Will

 

P.S. Sorry if I offended you with my shout manor, hopefully this is more acceptable.

[paulears]

If I were you, I'd contact other venues similar to yours - or maybe talk to the people who make Tallescopes. As far as I'm aware, the rungs on the scope are NOT rated for this purpose.

 

As for this bit

I have a responsibility to adhere to his rulings or in his own words “face prosecution”.

No manager should say stuff like this as it's rubbish. If you adhered to his ruling and somebody was injured, you'd have some very hard questions to face, if you revealed you had had doubts.

 

Before you use a scope in this manner - you need the manufacturer to tell you what you are doing is within the design limits of the product. Bearing in mind how they are unwilling to set a rubric for moving scopes with people in the basket, I doubt they would say "yes - fine to clip on to the rungs.

 

I appreciate how difficult it is to not do what a 'manager' tells you - but what you are doing is not what hundreds of other venues do - and him thinking he's right, and they are all wrong should ring an alarm bell.

 

Mind you - maybe you could use all this to justify the cost of a proper mobile piece of access kit, rather than the manual scope - and H&S is always a good way to get a council to spend public money.

 

As an aside - you've got your own back already - I have to work with Kev Orkian soon.

P

[Ynot]

Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, however name calling certainly is counter-productive and can never solve a problem.

 

I certainly have never commented whether or not I actually agree with this desistion however I have a responsibility to adhere to his rulings or in his own words “face prosecution”. We are a council run venue and as I keep getting told “we must be seen to be exemplar”.

 

Will, I'm going to jump in on the side of, well, virtually everyone who's responded, really.

The mere act of clipping on to and off of rungs as you climb any type of tladder (in the way you describe) is in fact placing a far higher risk on the ascent/descent than simply climbing 'freehand'.

 

Quite simply, ladders are for climbing using TWO hands. Strictly speaking you should not climb any ladder (particularly flat vertical ladders) carrying anything that would prevent you from using both hands freely (and yes, I know we can all point and say that's impractical, but THAT is actually a sensible maxim to promote).

 

The reason for that is that when climbing correctly (ie hand over hand) if for any reason one hand slips, the other is in position to restrain you. Simple.

 

Trust me, I've ben climbing ladders for 30 years, with many years 'professionally' including ascending those big high wooden poles with wires attached! I have NEVER come across any basic ladders which have any official policy attached dictating a clip-on whilst ascending. The only time, as Paul says, that you'll find such restraint strictures on ladders is on those climbing to FAR greater heights than you'll see on a stage, usually exterior and on things like aerial masts (been there, done that!) where there is a SPECIFIC mechanism built into the structure to facilitate it.

 

This is NOT name-calling but a statement that your H & S man is another of those who has absolutely NO idea of REAL H & S in our type of workplace, and should be seriously encouraged to go away and take proper guidance, because he is WRONG. Period.

 

As for the actual question you raised about rescuing someone from the top of a talle, that's simple.

YOU, do absolutely NOTHING.

Yo DO call the emergency services, and THEY will effect the rescue.

Why? Because you and your colleagues are not trained to carry out that sort of activity, and may do more harm than good if you attempt it! Again, simple. It sounds a bit daft in a way, but it's something I'd support.

Circumstances MAY dictate otherwise, but that should be the official line at least.

 

TD

[Jivemaster]

OK I've never used a Tallescope BUT in many situations like this a very good starting point is to have your own copy of the manufacturers instruction book and safe use instructions. See if you can download these from the maker's www

 

It's a brave H&S person or a fool who countermands the manufacturer's safe operating instructions without specific permission from the design authority.

[SlackerWill]

When I decided to write my first post I had a feeling that I would be chucking myself to the lions, ** laughs out loud **.

 

To answer my rescue problem I think I’ll have to contact someone like Lyon Equipment for a definitive solution. As for the practicalities of using a harness on the scope, I shall contact the manufacture Monday to discuss their stand point on this.

 

Perhaps it would be a good time for me to start looking into alternatives to the scope and use this added H&S issue to fuel the fire in order to fund new kit! Any ideas on that??

 

 

Will

(please don't shoot the messenger)

 

Paul you'll just love kev's wit.

[Ynot]

When I decided to write my first post I had a feeling that I would be chucking myself to the lions, ** laughs out loud **.

 

 

Don't fret!

It's not YOU who's in the lion's den, squire, but your H & S dude!! ;)

 

You've asked the question in the right place - just need to research the answers you have to give the guy so you have chapter & verse etc!

[Wuddy]

>SNIP<

To answer my rescue problem I think I’ll have to contact someone like Lyon Equipment for a definitive solution.

>SNIP<

Yes, I suppose that you will, as no-one on here, apart from Paul has made any attempt to answer your original query.

 

I seem to recall that you said

 

>SNIP<

I am not interested in people moaning about the usage of the scope

>SNIP<