100v Line System for outdoor Soapbox Derby Event?

[aeroalex]

Hi all! 

I am in charge of providing the PA system for a town centre Soapbox Derby event which takes place down the main shopping street which is quite steep and not that wide. The council want sound along the race course and previously they have used horns but they have sounded awful because the sound just creates and echo chamber between the shops on each side of the street. I’m thinking of using a 100v line system with some outdoor speakers attached to T Bar stands. Does anyone have any recommendations on kit? 

The course is 200 metres in length and there is a large PA system going to be put in place at the start line of the course so these other speakers don’t need to be too loud and they’ll be pretty much next to spectators ears… 

I’d initially thought a load of JBL control 1’s would work but they don’t have a transformer in as they’re normal low impedance speakers and I don’t think they’re outdoor rated. 
 

Any suggestions would be great!

Thanks

[sunray]

What's wrong with correctly positioned and operated horns? It's certainly not the horns that make sound echo around hard surfaces.

What make/model of horn and how many did they use last year?

 

How many speakers are you thinking of?

10 Control 1's in series * 4Ω=40Ω or 250W@100V

 

From personal experience Control 1's are not the right device in this situation (very high SPL in the nearfield with poor projection). Ironically I've found things like these Pulse:  https://cpc.farnell.com/pulse/ws6v-b/6-5-wall-speaker-blk-ip54-100v/dp/LS05995?st=pulse loudspeakers    do the job better than Control 1's, however that's a long way off a recommendation.

[aeroalex]

4 minutes ago, sunray said:

What's wrong with correctly positioned and operated horns? It's certainly not the horns that make sound echo around hard surfaces.

What make/model of horn and how many did they use last year?

 

How many speakers are you thinking of?

10 Control 1's in series * 4Ω=40Ω or 250W@100V

 

From personal experience Control 1's are not the right device in this situation (very high SPL in the nearfield with poor projection). Ironically I've found things like these Pulse:  https://cpc.farnell.com/pulse/ws6v-b/6-5-wall-speaker-blk-ip54-100v/dp/LS05995?st=pulse loudspeakers    do the job better than Control 1's, however that's a long way off a recommendation.

I agree and perhaps I neglected to say that the speakers will be used for music reproduction as well as speech and my experience with horns and music hasn’t been great. 

The horns used were ancient, couldn’t tell you the make and model. They use around 8 horns.

There would probably be a need for up to 8 speakers on t-bar stands pointing both up and down the street. 

[sunray]

Which road is this To look at on streetview?

Edited May 23 by sunray

[dbuckley]

6 hours ago, aeroalex said:

There would probably be a need for up to 8 speakers on t-bar stands pointing both up and down the street. 

Don't point horns both ways from one location, it causes nasty dual arrivals in between.  Point them all one way.

[aeroalex]

8 hours ago, sunray said:

Which road is this To look at on streetview?

It’s a pedestrianised street so you can’t view it on street view but here is an aerial shot. 

 

Edited May 24 by aeroalex

[aeroalex]

1 hour ago, dbuckley said:

Don't point horns both ways from one location, it causes nasty dual arrivals in between.  Point them all one way.

I wasn’t in charge when the supplier did the event previously. But yes I definitely wouldn’t point horns in opposite directions. 

[Stuart91]

100v speakers that will do full range sound do exist, but are expensive. 

There's a few events we handle where there is no option but 100v. (Existing speaker lines laid under the street)

We've got a bunch of TOA horns that handle speech more than adequately but music sounds horrible. But there's just not the budget for me to buy anything with sufficient output and frequency range. Thankfully the music is only background at the start and finish of the event but I still wince whenever I hear it. 

[cedd]

Do you HAVE to do this with 100V line? If I was coming at this with a view to carrying out music reproduction and decreasing echo i'd run a chunky power cable with regular outlets (say every 20m) along with a single run of xlr. At each 20m interval i'd put a powered speaker with onboard dsp (RCF TT+ for example) pointing away from the start of the run. I'd then delay using the onboard dsp from the start line (or wherever the presenting is being done from) right down the street. Should give you a much better result. 

The caveat is that if anybody needs to speak in to a microphone down at the finish line, they're going to have a hard time doing it whilst hearing themselves delayed. An IEM for personal foldback might be a solution in this case. 

For a one day hire with a local hire firm, I don't think you'd break the bank. Clearly it's an annual expense rather than something that's bought once then stored till next time, but the results will be far better. 

Edited May 24 by cedd

[aeroalex]

3 hours ago, cedd said:

Do you HAVE to do this with 100V line? If I was coming at this with a view to carrying out music reproduction and decreasing echo I'd run a chunky power cable with regular outlets (say every 20m) along with a single run of xlr. At each 20m interval I'd put a powered speaker with onboard dsp (RCF TT+ for example) pointing away from the start of the run. I'd then delay using the onboard dsp from the start line (or wherever the presenting is being done from) right down the street. Should give you a much better result. 

The caveat is that if anybody needs to speak in to a microphone down at the finish line, they're going to have a hard time doing it whilst hearing themselves delayed. An IEM for personal foldback might be a solution in this case. 

For a one day hire with a local hire firm, I don't think you'd break the bank. Clearly it's an annual expense rather than something that's bought once then stored till next time, but the results will be far better. 

I agree but can you run XLR over a long distance such as 200 metres though? 

[cedd]

Just now, aeroalex said:

I agree but can you run XLR over a long distance such as 200 metres though? 

Times it by 10 and you still probably wouldn't have a problem. We have dozens of 2km+ runs of balanced line at work and they're absolutely problem free. If you're concerned though them run the line output hot and then attenuate at the speakers to improve the signal to noise ratio. It won't be a problem though.

[aeroalex]

13 minutes ago, cedd said:

Times it by 10 and you still probably wouldn't have a problem. We have dozens of 2km+ runs of balanced line at work and they're absolutely problem free. If you're concerned though them run the line output hot and then attenuate at the speakers to improve the signal to noise ratio. It won't be a problem though.

Oh right ok, I got given a load of Bose 101’s years ago that had XLR connections on the back so now I’m wondering if they would do the job for this? They’re only rated 50w though so would probably need quite a few to cover the whole course… 

The council I’m working with have a tiny budget which is always the case with these things! 

[Yorkie]

XLR connectors on Bose 101's from 20+ years ago are likely to be for connection to the output of a power amplifier (this use has been superseded by Speakons in any modern PA kit worth having) rather than for a balanced line out of a mixing desk

[themadhippy]

Quote

I got given a load of Bose 101’s years ago that had XLR connections on the back

having xlrs means nothing.The 101's were a passive box and still require an amp to run them.What cedd is refereing to is a speaker with the amp built in.

[kerry davies]

We used to have square TOA horns which to my less than critical ears were quite acceptable for background music. The "large PA system" at one end raises questions and I would suspect that the previous horns were being cranked up to match that large sound source. 

Edited May 25 by kerry davies
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