Data/Control Gremlins please speculate

[Oscah]

So, I have been having strange issues with my rig since I started this job, it comprises of a couple of switch packs, 4 betapacs and some grafted on LED fixtures, ledj pars, etc and 3 mismatched moving heads, cheap stuff, 2 are Stairville, worst of all there are maybe 10+ ADJ wifli units, one per bar, one on each boom, one at the desk etc.

 

I found one wifly to be faulty (couldn't control a boom) so I ran a DMX line which fixed the problem, proving out my fault finding there at least. 

 

The current issue is that I cannot (fully) control the moving heads, one has pan and tilt but no lamp, the other on the same bar has lamp but no control however there are also 3 led parcans ON THE SAME DMX LINE that work perfectly well, the 3rd moving head is on a different bar with a different wifly unit, I have no control there at all.

 

Ok, here is the kicker, yesterday I had all 3 working perfectly without fault 🤮 literally the only change between then and now is main breaker power down and up, I also had this same no control state maybe 2 weeks ago and not having a single clue why I didnt fix it but it did however fix itself somehow as yesterday they all worked fine.

 

As they are on different wifly units im suspicious of the desk Zero flx s24 but it seems stable, no glitching, it maybe the wifly sender but it doesn't affect the pars, it could be 2.4ghz interference but again doesn't affect the pars, it seems the only thing I can effect them by is a powercycle,  that makes no sense for 3 different fixtures.

 

The only thing in common really is the desk, im not totally up to speed on it and it has a patch I didn't do but I guess I could go for a save nuke re-patch attempt, I have maybe a week and a half until the rig will be in use again, also the rig inst easily accessible due to seating rake, scaffold tower so its not straightforward to climb up there and stick a cable in AND because its installed on wireless there isn't really a DMX ring so much as a few spurs so tapping a bar into the existing data circuit is a real pain.

 

Anyway, I invite speculation as a 35 year user of DMX and moving lights I am finding this little awkward rig to be a real pain.

 

cheers

[Edward- Z88]

Hi @Oscah

1 hour ago, Oscah said:

im suspicious of the desk Zero flx s24 but it seems stable

Firstly, make sure that the console isn't on really old software. Send us an email to support@zero88.com, and we'll be able to help with this.

1 hour ago, Oscah said:

im not totally up to speed on it and it has a patch I didn't do but I guess I could go for a save nuke re-patch attempt

Create a list of all your fixture's modes and addresses, and then make sure these match the patch on the console. Make sure that you do indeed have the correct fixture model patched for your movers.

1 hour ago, Oscah said:

I cannot (fully) control the moving heads, one has pan and tilt but no lamp, the other on the same bar has lamp but no control

When you say "Lamp", do you simply mean control over the intensity, or are you referring to being able to strike/dowse the lamps?

1 hour ago, Oscah said:

the 3rd moving head is on a different bar with a different wifly unit, I have no control there at all.

If you temporarily stick one of the working LED PARs on this DMX receiver, can you control it? If so, this proves data is getting there.

Edited April 3 by Edward- Z88

[Oscah]

Hi Edward

 

I have had a development, I moved the wireless DMX transmitter to the dimmer room (next to stage) instead of the control room and suddenly everything seems to be responding correctly, this suggests that led parcans will run on a suggestion of DMX while moving heads will balk and refuse to play ball, even on the same data line! 

 

I don't trust this development for 1 min so I will prod it all into failure (if I can) and then apply your suggestions.

 

Thanks for your help (fingers crossed)

[Don Allen]

Several suggestions:

Move the wireless transmitter to where it is line of sight of any receivers, some installers set them up in rooms with one or two walls between the transmitter and the receivers, which reduces rf signal strength. Do your units have external antennas ? some receivers are small XLR barrel units with small built in antennas, so have poorer receive performance.

Make sure you turn on the power to the transmitter first, then after about 30 seconds turn on the receivers, This is important as your wireless receivers may be set up in auto mode so they will switch to being a transmitter if they have a DMX input when they are turned on, or If they receive a DMX signal when they are turned on, they switch to being a receiver. If they are are not getting a DMX signal on their DMX input and not receiving a DMX signal, they could randomly become a transmitter and will stay in that mode until they are powered off. Some are auto channel switching to avoid interference so the receivers may not change to the same channel as the transmitter.

I install Chauvet DFI Hub Wireless DMX  in schools where it is too costly to run DMX cables as they have a large antenna, are low cost and can be set to Tx or RX mode on a set channel. 

It is always preferable to run cables if you can. Even top of the range DMX transceivers can be faulty or set up wrong.

Another problem that can occur is when you have different brands of equipment on one DMX cable that are causing DMX corruption. If possible, use a separate DMX splitter output for each brand of equipment. This problem is more prevalent with budget equipment form overseas,

Always terminate your DMX cables, some people don't as it shows up DMX errors due to cable faults, which is what you want to find and eliminate before show time.

[themadhippy]

Quote

is a real pain.

putting up with the pain once to put wired dmx cables in is surely better than the pain of trouble shooting temperamental  wireless networks every time the  planets are at the wrong angle.

[Oscah]

Yes I quite agree hippy, unfortunately in in an educational setting and while I could maybe raise the cash for the cable they also need new profiles, some stands, new FOH cabs some backlighting a talkback system, more dancefloor, some stands and tbars,  honestly its endless. 😄 

 

It has been fun doing much with little again though, maybe in time.

[Oscah]

20 hours ago, Don Allen said:

Several suggestions:

Move the wireless transmitter to where it is line of sight of any receivers, some installers set them up in rooms with one or two walls between the transmitter and the receivers, which reduces rf signal strength. Do your units have external antennas ? some receivers are small XLR barrel units with small built in antennas, so have poorer receive performance.

Make sure you turn on the power to the transmitter first, then after about 30 seconds turn on the receivers, This is important as your wireless receivers may be set up in auto mode so they will switch to being a transmitter if they have a DMX input when they are turned on, or If they receive a DMX signal when they are turned on, they switch to being a receiver. If they are are not getting a DMX signal on their DMX input and not receiving a DMX signal, they could randomly become a transmitter and will stay in that mode until they are powered off. Some are auto channel switching to avoid interference so the receivers may not change to the same channel as the transmitter.

I install Chauvet DFI Hub Wireless DMX  in schools where it is too costly to run DMX cables as they have a large antenna, are low cost and can be set to Tx or RX mode on a set channel. 

It is always preferable to run cables if you can. Even top of the range DMX transceivers can be faulty or set up wrong.

Another problem that can occur is when you have different brands of equipment on one DMX cable that are causing DMX corruption. If possible, use a separate DMX splitter output for each brand of equipment. This problem is more prevalent with budget equipment form overseas,

Always terminate your DMX cables, some people don't as it shows up DMX errors due to cable faults, which is what you want to find and eliminate before show time.

Thanks for the info Don, the powering up order didn't occur to me and while I dont think that was an issue I will definitely have it in mind in the future.

[KevinE]

I can't speak for the fixtures specifically but if there's a setting to determine what they do if they lose DMX, make sure it's set to something sensible like 'black out' or 'remember dmx values'. Many fixtures come by default as 'stand alone' or 'sound to light' if they lose DMX and as has been intimated already, even if just one starts re-transmitting its own DMX before the wifi or desk is bootted can turn the wifi receivers (or other fixtures) into transmitters, bringing the whole thing crashing down.

Edited April 4 by KevinE

[Ynot]

1 hour ago, KevinE said:

Many BUDGET/DJ fixtures come by default as 'stand alone' or 'sound to light' if they lose DMX ....

Fixed that bit for you 😄 

[KevinE]

was trying to avoid any unnecessariness 👼

[sunray]

I've had involvement with wireless DMX twice, one was the issue of sequencing the start-up routine to revent them going into transmit and we had to replug mains services to achieve that however after that we found the system, and the other had the same issue, developed delay issues when the venue filled up, at a scene change there were some, but not always, obvious delays between the cabled fittings and those on wireless links and also odd flickers. One of them had 3 significant glitches coinciding with the goals scored in a football match which was the clincher for us.