Average uk west end show volume level

[halftonner]

Possibly a strange ask - but in the uk, what is the approximate average volume level in db in the auditorium during a musical show (not a drama show)?

[Ynot]

20 minutes ago, halftonner said:

Possibly a strange ask - but in the uk, what is the approximate average volume level in db in the auditorium during a musical show (not a drama show)?

I'd say that pretty much depends on the requirements of each show's production needs and the work of the #1 noisies...

I doubt you'll get much of a knowledgable average tbh.

Why the question?

[kerry davies]

Average levels would be relatively meaningless as a flat out rock number with dozens of voices can be followed by a whispered sweet nothing. A number packed rock show could well average many times what Madame Butterfly would.

 

[halftonner]

48 minutes ago, Ynot said:

I'd say that pretty much depends on the requirements of each show's production needs and the work of the #1 noisies...

I doubt you'll get much of a knowledgable average tbh.

Why the question?

It’s sort of idle curiousness - we’ve got a show in atm and at the end of the tech/dress both mine and the sound op ears were aching … but the director said that you need volume to drive the show …

my mind says that volume isn’t the answer, as you want the audience to be comfortable and enjoy the show … yes a small bit of volume is needed to make it fun, but overly loud spoils it as it’s uncomfortable - my opinion anyway.

[J Pearce]

I’ve done musicals that didn’t peak beyond 90dB, and I’ve done some that hit 110dB.

I’d usually advocate for keeping the LAeq below 100dB.

There is a recurrent issue where SPL is equated with energy, and actually mix dynamics and tone probably contribute more to energy. However, most non-sound folk only know the words “louder” and “quieter”, so that’s all they end up asking for/shouting over the god mic…

[sunray]

6 minutes ago, halftonner said:

It’s sort of idle curiousness - we’ve got a show in atm and at the end of the tech/dress both mine and the sound op ears were aching … but the director said that you need volume to drive the show …

my mind says that volume isn’t the answer, as you want the audience to be comfortable and enjoy the show … yes a small bit of volume is needed to make it fun, but overly loud spoils it as it’s uncomfortable - my opinion anyway.

Isn't this always the case these days?

[sleah]

Maybe it's to try and drown out the audience singing....... 😶

[kitlane]

The 'loudest' theatre show I've seen recently was probably 'Standing At The Sky's Edge' at The National. But it was never painful or uncomfortable. If your ears are hurting after the dress of a family show then something is wrong. If this is your job, then the Control of Noise at Work Regulations apply

https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/hsg260.htm

[Robin D]

The issue is that it's all a little subjective from the audience perspective. We went to see Oklahoma at the Wyndhams last week and we were up in the dress circle. I found the levels fine, but the guy sat beside me and the three ladies behind me continually complained it was too loud when they sang but were constantly 'what did they say?' during any narrative bits. We loved the show by the way! 

Last night we were with Francis Rossi on his acoustic tour, seated well back, just behind the A&H sound desk. Again, I thought it was great but on leaving, two people were complaining they couldn't hear what he was saying some of the time. However, I also observed one person sat in front of me with their hands over their ears and they did not return after the interval. It certainly was not the levels of the old Quo concerts though. 

I have often thought that if sound was part of the seat choosing experience, we might be able to please more of the people more of the time, but have no idea how to show that on a seating plan.

An average is surely almost impossible. It depends where in the auditorium the measurement is taken. Flown arrays have a different dispersion pattern to stacks either side!  

I agree with the if the ears ache, it's too loud mantra! 

Edit to add. I also learnt years ago that the quality of the sound makes a huge difference to the levels you can drive to. As distortion levels rise, so does the pain factor!

 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Robin D

[sunray]

30 minutes ago, Robin D said:

The issue is that it's all a little subjective from the audience perspective. We went to see Oklahoma at the Wyndhams last week and we were up in the dress circle. I found the levels fine, but the guy sat beside me and the three ladies behind me continually complained it was too loud when they sang but were constantly 'what did they say?' during any narrative bits. We loved the show by the way! 

Last night we were with Francis Rossi on his acoustic tour, seated well back, just behind the A&H sound desk. Again, I thought it was great but on leaving, two people were complaining they couldn't hear what he was saying some of the time. However, I also observed one person sat in front of me with their hands over their ears and they did not return after the interval. It certainly was not the levels of the old Quo concerts though. 

I have often thought that if sound was part of the seat choosing experience, we might be able to please more of the people more of the time, but have no idea how to show that on a seating plan.

An average is surely almost impossible. It depends where in the auditorium the measurement is taken. Flown arrays have a different dispersion pattern to stacks either side!  

I agree with the if the ears ache, it's too loud mantra! 

Edit to add. I also learnt years ago that the quality of the sound makes a huge difference to the levels you can drive to. As distortion levels rise, so does the pain factor!

 

 

I started ready this reply thinking 'Err you have no clue'.

Then you went on to point out the problems.

Having worked with sound systems (there was a picture of me sitting on loudspeakers in my pushchair) and other high SPL's all of my working live. One massive thing I've noticed as PA's have got louder is the reduction of quality and crazy wall of sound spectrum now forced on the audience but sharply omitting the feedback sections. The result is everything being squared off and although it doesn't sound it it's distorted. 

The silly thing is anything over 85dB in ny position in a plant room is compulsory ear protection while in the room regardless of the level at the place of work, 10 times the SPL in a theatre seems to be perfectly acceptable.

Ear protection required for security staff at a festival but no one gives a toss for the audience with them.

Edited April 12, 2023 by sunray

[J Pearce]

8 minutes ago, sunray said:

reduction of quality and crazy wall of sound spectrum now forced on the audience but sharply omitting the feedback sections

What? I've read this 3 times and it's still word soup to me.

Re audience vs staff - there is a note of exposure here, staff are exposed to the show 8/9/10/11/12 times a week, the audience much less often. 
I'm mostly on team 'why is it so loud' but equally wouldn't want every show to be limited to 85dB.

[sleah]

3 hours ago, Robin D said:

Edit to add. I also learnt years ago that the quality of the sound makes a huge difference to the levels you can drive to. As distortion levels rise, so does the pain factor!

 

You've pretty much nailed it there. Quality of sound also affects perception of loudness.

I've dipped in and out of the mobile disco game for 35 years and have experienced everything in terms of volume and quality in that environment.

With a top-quality system it can be very loud and you not realise. Take being at a large corporate event or a decent nightclub, you may not realise just how loud it is because it sounds great, it is comfortable to listen to and you're thinking it's not as loud as it might be, until you speak and nothing comes out! Then you realise it's pretty loud - quality source, quality kit, good gain structure/EQ and an operator who knows the limits of the system. On the flip side, down the boozer with Sixty-Quid-Sid on the wheels of steel, your ears hurt and you feel uncomfortable despite him only pumping out 200W - because he's using low bit rate mp3s from a headphone out on a cheap lappy, no-name mixer, bass/treble at max and screwing the ar5e out of it all.

Edited April 12, 2023 by sleah

[paulears]

Audiences also choose to expose themselves, staff have little choice.

However - loudness is always relative without a meter. I remember an old lady coming up to me and demanding it should be turned down, because it was far too loud. This was a bit odd, because it was a big band gig, and it was one of the realistic recreations, so the only mics were the one for the singers, and the between number chat by the band leader. I pointed out that not only was it not amplified, but asked her if she saw this orchestra when they were playing during the war? She said she hadn't seen these, but had seen Glenn Miller's Orchestra. I mentioned that he had about 50% more musicians, so her war time experience would have been louder than this one!

[sunray]

1 hour ago, paulears said:

Audiences also choose to expose themselves, staff have little choice.

However - loudness is always relative without a meter. I remember an old lady coming up to me and demanding it should be turned down, because it was far too loud. This was a bit odd, because it was a big band gig, and it was one of the realistic recreations, so the only mics were the one for the singers, and the between number chat by the band leader. I pointed out that not only was it not amplified, but asked her if she saw this orchestra when they were playing during the war? She said she hadn't seen these, but had seen Glenn Miller's Orchestra. I mentioned that he had about 50% more musicians, so her war time experience would have been louder than this one!

We had the same situation with drum group, about 30 guys with a selection of tribal style drums/bongos etc. Our stage was actually limited to 87dB by the event H&S. The arrived and gave us 10 seconds to turn it down as their meter was showing around 100dB, they didn't understand there was no amplification involved but they still turned our power off and padlocked it. The ice cream van and burger tent weren't impressed as it took H&S half hour to find the key but the drum group played on.

[sunray]

6 hours ago, J Pearce said:

I'm mostly on team 'why is it so loud' but equally wouldn't want every show to be limited to 85dB.

How many members of the audience do you think would notice if it was running around mid 80's?

 

 

 

Only those who complain their ears aren't ringing when they leave.