Spansets over out of reach RSJ - or leave in permanently?

[TomHoward]

I have a semi-regular need to rig a couple of small 250kg manual chain blocks in a sports hall that has huge (24" x 10") RSJs. (About 4 times a year)
Off this goes about 6m of truss, without about 6 LED cans and 4 conventional PAR cans or fresnels.

The ceiling in there is pretty high, it's just out of reach for a 14-rung Zarges so getting the round slings over the RSJ is always a bit of an effort. Once a round sling is over, the bottom shackle is reachable to put the chain block on.

Every time I say I should just leave the round slings up there, but how would this work in terms of inspection? Can I leave some up permanently or any other kind of sling and it not require 6 month/annual inspection?

Or does anyone have any success with any kind of telescopic pole like window cleaners might use to pass a sling over a beam that's out of reach, and pick it up from the bottom?

 

[cedd]

Instead of leaving the spanset in permanently, could you leave in a loop of rope with a karabiner attached? Attach spanset to karabiner, pull one side of rope loop to hoist spanset up the other side and over the beam. Once down the other side, detach spanset from karabiner and rig to it as required. Rope loop is now ready to do it all again next time. 

[dje]

I like @cedd's solution. 

In terms of inspections and leaving baskets in, technically it's actually OK because the basket is not actually a lifting accessory in the scope of LOLER. A lifting accessory is used to attach the load to the lifting machine - so a spanset between the hook of your chain block and the lighting truss would be a lifting accessory but the spanset between the chain block and grid would not. That said - we tend to inspect baskets because (a) it is clearly a good idea ("best practice") on account of the fact that they're exposed to all the same wear and tear as lifting accessories; an also (b) in the event that the basket were removed from the roof and used as a truss pickup, it would need to have the inspection. So if we can't guarantee that baskets will only ever be baskets, we ought to inspect them as lifting accessories. 

So:

- Technically, you could leave them up, yes. You could probably give them an in situ visual inspection whenever you use them, to that end.
- Best practice, you'd be better using a 'permanent' anchor point... .for example a 'deck eye' welded to the RSJ or a custom lifting bracket on Lindapters; and a short chain stinger down from that - with the chain 'permanently' linked to the eye by way of a clevis link, so that it can be considered one accessory. Realistically, that could be inspected with the RSJs (if they have some kind of inspection regime).
- Or as cedd said above, you could leave a piece of rope in place to pull the spansets in as required. 
 

Edited March 19, 2022 by dje

[TomHoward]

If we were to install permanent anchor points, like a Linadapter with an eye, is there a method to attach to this out of reach? Like a pole op that could be used to attach/detach with a hook with latch to drop a steel of the right length down from this?

Another problem is with this being a sports hall is it is used for ball games for the rest of the year. Whilst a shackle on a round sling shouldn't have  a problem if it gets whacked with a ball, it swinging around could be enough to concern some people. (You'd think they shouldn't be smashing balls into an 8m+ ceiling, but we remove basketballs jammed above the RSJs all the time)

The rope loop sounds like a good idea but I'd be a little worried other users might think a loop of rope with a karabiner on was a lifting point in itself? I could mark it as such but it might still pose a risk of someone hanging something on it? I could probably come up with a heath Robinson system of passing a rope over the beam each time to pull the round sling over through, as I did just pass the round sling in the first instance today, hook it up & over and let the weight of the shackle bring it down the other side.

[dje]

I can't think of any reliable method to pole op a rigging point really. Even if it's possible for attachment I think it'd be a major pain for detaching.

In terms of permanent anchor points, I think you could make a T-shape welded construction with an eye on the bottom, such that the extension required to bring it down to ladder height wouldn't swing around if struck.

I share your concern that a rope around the beam with a karabiner could be wrongly interpreted to be a lifting sling. My suggestion to combat that would be to forego the carabiner, and to use as thin a 'rope' as possible. Some climbing accessory cord would be fine. You'd have to fail the competent person test to clip a chain block into accessory cord and claim you thought it was a lifting point!

As another alternative... I used to do a venue a lot which was just out of reach of 14 rung Zarges as well... I thread some fairly thin paracord through a tennis ball and would throw the tennis ball over the beam and then pull the spanset over. Tennis ball was heavy enough to carry the paracord and easy enough to handle... but also soft and light enough that if it came back and hit me in the face it didn't hurt. At the end of the day, if liability is your concern then your best bet is still to remove everything and install fresh each time.

Edited March 19, 2022 by dje

[J Pearce]

If the beam has unobstructed lower flanges, and the ladder reaches them, you could use a beam clamp instead of slinging around the beam.

Not sure if a beam clamp is an accessory for LOLER inspections - someone else will know! 

[dje]

3 minutes ago, J Pearce said:

If the beam has unobstructed lower flanges, and the ladder reaches them, you could use a beam clamp instead of slinging around the beam.

I was presuming if they can't reach the beam (this being the problem) then a beam clamp is not helpful. But yes if they can reach the bottom this is a good fit.

Quote

Not sure if a beam clamp is an accessory for LOLER inspections - someone else will know! 

Again it's a yes and no. If used solely as the top attachment point then no, it's not a lifting accessory. If used below the hook (beam clamps can, in some circumstances, be used inverted to lift I Beams) then it would be a lifting accessory. So whether it's a lifting accessory or not basically depends on how it's used, as much as what it is.

[J Pearce]

With the dimensions of the beam given in the post, I was wondering if the issue was reaching over the beam to get the spanset over. Getting a beam clamp up there might be less easy than slinging a spanset over your shoulder though!

[themadhippy]

Quote

I thread some fairly thin paracord through a tennis ball and would throw the tennis ball over the beam and then pull the spanset over.

tree surgeon mate of mine   uses a  bow an arrow ,how much space you got between the beam and roof and how good a shot are you?

[sunray]

Colour coordinated thin cord loop over the beam and a cleat on the wall at a height you can just reach (to get it out of the way of other users/abusers). Figure of eight the cord on the cleat when not in use, use cord loop to pull a rope over beam, rettic the cord on the cleat leaving cord neatly restrained against the wall, pull spanset over beam with rope.

At rip out use rope to lower spanset.

I have almost this exact system in place for routing power cables in a venue.

Edited March 19, 2022 by sunray
Tidy post

[TomHoward]

Thanks for the suggestions, unfortunately the room has cricket nets that come out the length of the room so leaving in cords to the side walls might not work out.

The boomed down rigging points could work potentially. You can reach the bottom of the RSJs at the edges, but not the middle, you could fit clamps permanently but not from the Zarges if I could come up with a better way to attach to them out of reach.
It's a pitched roof with a central ridge which makes the beam clamps a little harder as the roof is about 15degrees off.

Currently I can only reach about halfway up the pitch which means I have about a 6-7m span in the middle I can't reach - my thought is if I put slings in permanently I'd get a scaffold tower out and fit some longer round slings in the middle to reach down to where I could reach them. Or if I find a way to get them over I can fit them from the ground / from a more reasonable ladder height.

In terms of heath Robinson contraptions, it sounds like paracord threaded through a tennis ball combined with an extended one of those tennis ball throwers for dog walkers could work, to pass a cord over then pull round sling up. Or I might try make one of those litter grabbers with a 90 degree bend in it. There's about 6 inches between RSJs and the underside of the roof.

[IRW]

I was about to suggest the modern day version of the bow and arrow method...a small drone with a bit of string attached, but then I read your last post about the 6" gap. Still doable, but you'd need good piloting skills!

[IRW]

Or...in the same vein as your 90' litter picker/tennis ball idea, what about making some sort of blow-pipe affair out of some 25mm PVC conduit? A snugly fitting foam ball with a bit of string attached popped into the bent end, such that when you blow hard in the other end your ball goes over the RSJ...

Edited to add:

Further thought, if you made the bent end 12" long and use, routed the string through the PVC conduit and had a larger ball on the end of it that was too big for the pipe, you could then hold the string tight at the bottom end so that the ball is tight to the conduit opening, 'hook' the pipe over the RSJ, then let the string pay out until the ball is at a suitable height to hook the spanset round (or tie the spanset to the other end of the string, but you'd have to retract the pipe first if you did it that way). Does that make sense?

Edited March 19, 2022 by IRW

[themadhippy]

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tennis ball idea, what about making some sort of blow-pipe affair out of some 25mm PVC conduit?

you've just brought back a child hood memory,the gas pipe bazooka.Couple of foot of gas pipe, a powerful spring,and tennis balls for ammo

[indyld]

Did I miss why it isn't possible to get one time vertical access to these point roots and permanently put a beam clamp and drop a suitable length stinger down that can be reached every other time?

Edited March 20, 2022 by indyld