Frequent luminaire failures

[Heptagon]

How are the fixtures powered, I know a venue which powered LED fixtures from dimmer channels set to full and that caused a lot of power supply failures in the fixtures.

 

They have proper "hot" power, via three LSC APS power distribution racks.

 

Worth checking the supply voltage in the venue if you can. If it's at the higher end of the tolerance, it'll stress the (24/7) PSUs more than if it was a bit lower.

 

We are told this was done, and showed "normal" voltages - no further info was supplied, but it was just a single measurement - no long-term monitoring.

 

What do Selecon say?

 

I have raised a question - I'll report back on their reply.

Thanks

 

For us, our GDS Arcs fixtures are the energy efficient work light system as well as house and platform lighting so live powered 24/7 to run off PIR and BMS control.

 

Our ETC fixtures live powered 24/7 as the install contractor left no reasonable means to turn them off (short of throwing breakers on the dimmer/distro racks) and the lighting desks are available self service to non technical staff and students throughout the building opening hours.

 

Yes it should be different, but it isn't and contracts/budgets don't allow for remedial work. Been there, had those discussions.

 

I should add - when this was brought up with the installers their response was that ETC rated the fixtures for 24/7 power in architectural installs, so as far as they were concerned it was compliant with the manufacturer's spec

 

The switch off procedure would be simply to use the 3 3-phase switches - easily accessible.

 

Do the ETC fans run when the units are cold?

 

The Selecon unit fans run constantly as long as power is applied. (The theatre hums constantly - people think it is the air-conditioning).

[paulears]

What interests me is that the venue charge appears to cover the lighting they supply, and then they charge you for repairs. I assume you are the only user - clearly they couldn't charge you for other people using the equipment.

 

It would seem that if you are the only user, then this needs to be contractually looked at by the legal folk. I supply equipment for a venue, and it lives there permanently. A few pre 1994 lights are still in use. My contract makes the theatre responsible for replacement of lamps, not me - but failures to my equipment are firmly my responsibility. To my way of thinking, you hope the venue with an inventory of equipment in working and safe order. If repairs have become your responsibility because they purchased it, but don't like the running costs, this requirement for you to repair their equipment needs looking at. There is another aspect. These failures could be a safety risk. If you focus one of them and get a shock, if you have accepted, perhaps by not rejecting the repair charge demands, responsibility - then that could be something your insurance company will reject. A death or serious injury caused by equipment supplied by the venue. I'm not sure this would fly in the UK. Hired in equipment is always the responsibility of the owner in repairs and safety. The venue seem to have invested in new lights, seen increased running costs and passed them on. Accepting these charges places you in a dodgy area. If I was paying for repairs like this, I'd want to be told exactly why the repairs were needed and see the reports and possibly (if I had to pay contractually) find a different repair company.

[Jivemaster]

50,000 hours should last for 5.7 years continuously so the issue is that the luminaires are not achieving much of their rated life. But that rating is rather short for the case of a PAR can or a PAT 23.

 

The makers may warranty the luminaire life or may not, the contract with the venue seems unlikely to be shaken.

[Don Allen]

Seems like someone at installation time has not configured the LSC APS

 

"The APS is also ideal for permanent installations such as schools, churches, public halls and other venues where Energy Management is a key goal. By using APS modules to power all the lighting and video system, all the LED fixtures, video screens and moving lights will automatically be powered off a few minutes after the lighting console is turned off. When the console is next turned on, the lighting and video equipment will be sequentially powered up over a few seconds, without any user intervention, a truly Green solution."

"the APS is capable of the following:

 

Automatic power On/Off of circuits when DMX is detected

Combined MCB and RCD (RCBO) breakers – circuit breaker with earth leakage protection (RCD/GFI) for each circuit

RCBO breaker also provides Neutral Disconnect function.

Staggered power up of outputs to prevent overloading of the supply feed breakers (cascading of multiple units is also possible)

Control via DMX512 – presence detected turns outputs on and loss of DMX turns outputs off after a preset time delay eg. 19 minutes

Control via GPI contact closure

Control via RDM

Cascading startup for individual units via XLR5 cabling and/or based on unit number

Manual override via front panel

10A, 13A, 16A & 20A variants

Monitoring of input voltages (3-phase), frequency and currents;

Programmable overvoltage and undervoltage trips to protect loads

Voltage and current reporting via RDM

Three phase operation

Single phase operation possible but input current must be limited to 63A in total;"

[J Pearce]

Do the ETC fans run when the units are cold?

 

The ARCs units and D40s are passive cooled. The Lustrs run their fan by heat demand only.

[Heptagon]

Seems like someone at installation time has not configured the LSC APS

A thought just struck me - They have a Crestron system that can also control the lighting (via DMX).

 

The first thing on start-up is to use the Crestron to choose "Simple" or "Advanced" mode.

"Simple mode" is just stage wash or lectern lights, but the lighting board is not used. (So the Crestron must be generating DMX).

"Advanced mode" puts the Hog lighting board in charge.

Is it possible that the Crestron is generating some kind of heartbeat on the DMX which is keeping the APS awake, and powering the lights?

(I have to say I do not understand the Crestron at all).

 

[Heptagon]

Thank you all for your comments on this - we have had a partial win. 

After much pushing on our part, they have done something. They have set things up so that the APS cuts the power to the lighting on detecting zero DMX.

While this is good - they claimed they had to load up the circuits to the point that they on the edge of tripping, and all the lights of our own we use (all DMX LED) will have to be run using extension leads to wall power outlets. This means of course we do not get any protection for our lighting, and have to send our operators out onto the lighting balconies to switch on/off between performances. 

When I gave them a set of numbers showing that none of the circuits were at even 1/3 capacity, we got this reply back (identifying info removed):

"While there may be the capacity to connect more than four lights to a single power circuit, the main reason for separating hirers equipment from the XXXX equipment is to reduce the ongoing repair costs of broken fixtures.  As we only access the room once a month for maintenance checks and cleaning, we cannot control what hirers do while they are in the space.  XXXX has already spent $5550 repairing lighting fixtures since the venue was refurbished.  We currently have another six fixtures waiting for spare parts.  This will potentially add another $4000 to this total.  As I am responsible for protecting these assets for XXXX, I see no other option than to ask all hirers to keep any additional fixtures separated from XXXX equipment.  We are now requesting that all hirer equipment to be connected to separate power sources using the spare power cables supplied onsite.  This will reduce the chance of hirers connecting dimmable power sources to the XXXX fixtures".

There are multiple red signs saying that dimmable power sources MUST NEVER be used (even bringing a dimmer pack into the venue would be considered to be wilful damage) - is there any logic to his position?

 

 

[sunray]

7 hours ago, Heptagon said:

Thank you all for your comments on this - we have had a partial win. 

After much pushing on our part, they have done something. They have set things up so that the APS cuts the power to the lighting on detecting zero DMX.

While this is good - they claimed they had to load up the circuits to the point that they on the edge of tripping, and all the lights of our own we use (all DMX LED) will have to be run using extension leads to wall power outlets. This means of course we do not get any protection for our lighting, and have to send our operators out onto the lighting balconies to switch on/off between performances. 

When I gave them a set of numbers showing that none of the circuits were at even 1/3 capacity, we got this reply back (identifying info removed):

"While there may be the capacity to connect more than four lights to a single power circuit, the main reason for separating hirers equipment from the XXXX equipment is to reduce the ongoing repair costs of broken fixtures.  As we only access the room once a month for maintenance checks and cleaning, we cannot control what hirers do while they are in the space.  XXXX has already spent $5550 repairing lighting fixtures since the venue was refurbished.  We currently have another six fixtures waiting for spare parts.  This will potentially add another $4000 to this total.  As I am responsible for protecting these assets for XXXX, I see no other option than to ask all hirers to keep any additional fixtures separated from XXXX equipment.  We are now requesting that all hirer equipment to be connected to separate power sources using the spare power cables supplied onsite.  This will reduce the chance of hirers connecting dimmable power sources to the XXXX fixtures".

There are multiple red signs saying that dimmable power sources MUST NEVER be used (even bringing a dimmer pack into the venue would be considered to be wilful damage) - is there any logic to his position?

 

 

In any theatre hosting hiring customers I'd expect to see either a power connexion point or big sockets for their use and adding dimming equipment is an assumed use of such. combination of dimmer packs and LED fixtures has always been the normal thing to do.

[timsabre]

They do have a valid point - it is true that powering LED fixtures off a dimmable power source can damage the electronics. So it sounds like they are trying to stop venue hirers messing with the venue's installed equipment and potentially plugging them into a dimmed power source. Although their solution to this sounds a bit clunky.

In a venue with a permanent crew or used by experienced crew, a mix of dimmer and hard power outlets (or switchable dim/hard power) is often found but it relies heavily on the crew to use the right sort of power for the fixture and I've seen mistakes made and fixtures damaged even with experienced crew.

What they should probably do is have some specified and clearly marked sockets on the rig for hirer's brought in equipment rather than using extension cables.

[Heptagon]

12 hours ago, timsabre said:

 Although their solution to this sounds a bit clunky.

 

Clunky it certainly is. Our operators (not riggers) have to climb out on a lighting balcony - stepping over the venue's profiles (without knocking them or unplugging them) twice per performance to switch off and on.

But I don't see how it is any sort of solution. If hirers are prepared to violate the hire conditions by bringing in a dimmer pack, why would they go to the trouble of using the special extension leads? 

 

[sunray]

30 minutes ago, Heptagon said:

Clunky it certainly is. Our operators (not riggers) have to climb out on a lighting balcony - stepping over the venue's profiles (without knocking them or unplugging them) twice per performance to switch off and on.

 

 

My instant thought here is Elf n' safety.

[Ynot]

I really think that some serious sit-down talks with the venue staff is needed here.

Bottom out what they THINK the problems are and arrive at some workable solutions going forward.

 

[timsabre]

15 hours ago, Heptagon said:

But I don't see how it is any sort of solution. If hirers are prepared to violate the hire conditions by bringing in a dimmer pack, why would they go to the trouble of using the special extension leads? 

 

It sounds to me like they are worried that you will plug their venue LED fixtures into a dimmed power outlet. So they are hoping that by banning any interaction with their hardwired power outlets and forcing use of separate extension cables, this (expensive) problem will not occur. If you want to bring in a dimmer pack that's your problem what you do with it as long as you don't mess with their fixture wiring.

As Tony says above it sounds like your communication with the venue management is not very good - if you could improve that you might find other solutions.

Edited September 6, 2022 by timsabre

[Bryson]

It seems to me that the wider macro problem, is that this venue does not have regular staffing, and is trying to shift that responsibility onto it's renters....

 

These are exactly the type of problems easily avoided by supplying a trained and empowered technician with the venue rental.

[Junior8]

On 9/5/2022 at 2:47 AM, Heptagon said:

There are multiple red signs saying that dimmable power sources MUST NEVER be used (even bringing a dimmer pack into the venue would be considered to be wilful damage) - is there any logic to his position?

There might be from their point of view but from any potential hirer's viewpoint it would look strange.  I can think of several situations where I might want to bring in even a small dimmer pack for some purpose and I'd expect to find a supply and a work round. I know in answer to my very flip initial reply to 'find another venue' you said it would be difficult but I think working with this one must be a nightmare.