Rock n Roll touring vs H&S

[Just Some Bloke]

I do agree with Paul. I'm a similar age and I find that driving home after a long shift can feel a little unsafe at times. Luckily where I work now is a 4 minute walk from home so all good!

 

 

I guess my feeling is that eventually the law will have to change so everyone is safe all the time. And if this happens it may even be a good thing rather than bad.

[Ynot]

Yesterday's RAIB report is very similar, regarding a tube driver who left the doors open between two stations for 56 seconds off 'full speed' running.I'd always thought that there was (supposed to be) a failsafe on train and tube coaches that wouldn't allow a driver to move until the doors were all closed - same as the doors having a failsafe that wouldn't allow them to be opened whilst train was in motion.

Maybe I'm misinformed...

A passenger pulled the alarm, but that doesn't stop a tube train, only alerts the driver so they continued on until the next station regardless.

 

It was very lucky that the train was almost empty. If it had happened on a busy time/section then somebody would almost certainly have fallen out.

 

 

 

[Stuart91]

I guess my feeling is that eventually the law will have to change so everyone is safe all the time. And if this happens it may even be a good thing rather than bad.

 

The tricky bit, irrespective of the legislation, is how it would be policed. A worker could easily clock off one job and go straight onto another shift. We'd almost need some personal equivalent of a tachograph to keep track of work and non-work activity. Even that wouldn't go far enough - the guy responsible for the Selby rail crash had been up most of the night before chatting with someone on the phone. Is there any way (short of gross violation of privacy) that we can actually prove that someone is adequately rested when they turn up for work?

[the kid]

I guess my feeling is that eventually the law will have to change so everyone is safe all the time. And if this happens it may even be a good thing rather than bad.

 

The tricky bit, irrespective of the legislation, is how it would be policed. A worker could easily clock off one job and go straight onto another shift. We'd almost need some personal equivalent of a tachograph to keep track of work and non-work activity. Even that wouldn't go far enough - the guy responsible for the Selby rail crash had been up most of the night before chatting with someone on the phone. Is there any way (short of gross violation of privacy) that we can actually prove that someone is adequately rested when they turn up for work?

In my old life we used crew that were 0 hours but through some clever work technically sole traders. One time we had someone arrive at 10am after being on a 2300-0600 shift, they then were going on to classes, at 1800 and back to another shift at 2300. Not our fault said the crew company they pick their hours and jobs. But sure as hell if you didn't take the shifts that were sutiable you dropped down the booking list.

[Junior8]

Yesterday's RAIB report is very similar, regarding a tube driver who left the doors open between two stations for 56 seconds off 'full speed' running.

A passenger pulled the alarm, but that doesn't stop a tube train, only alerts the driver so they continued on until the next station regardless.

 

It was very lucky that the train was almost empty. If it had happened on a busy time/section then somebody would almost certainly have fallen out.

 

BBC: https://www.bbc.co.u...london-48936731

 

RAIB report: https://www.gov.uk/g...ntent=immediate

 

The report mentions fatigue and or low blood sugar but it is obvious that the real cause is too much automation - again. The incident resulted from an on board computerised control system rebooting itself after being overloaded by fault messages from the ventilation system on the unit. This prevented some of the doors from opening The attendant - you cannot really call him a driver on the Jubilee - in confusion about what to do operated and over-ride switch which switched out his door control buttons. This over-ride switch had no alarm. LUL technicians who designed a system which allowed the train to take power with this door closing over-ride switch operated have a part to play in this.

[Tomo]

I'd always thought that there was (supposed to be) a failsafe on train and tube coaches that wouldn't allow a driver to move until the doors were all closed - same as the doors having a failsafe that wouldn't allow them to be opened whilst train was in motion.

There is, and he turned it off because he was confused about other issues.

[Just Some Bloke]

Re-reading this thread, another couple of points have come into my mind.

 

A few times, I've noticed on riders that promoters will specify that any local crew hired in by the venue need to have had a minimum of x hours rest since any previous work. Obviously, that could mean that the crew boss warns his team that if anyone asks when they last worked they should say "I just did a morning shift yesterday and haven't worked since", regardless of the truth. But even if they really do stick to this rule (and our guys would always do just that, if required by the rider) then it's entirely possible that the artiste's own team are not sticking to the same rules.

 

The other point is that EU WTD rules insist on an 11-hour break between shifts and I know that some venues do enforce this rule. This would mean that if you finished the load-out at midnight then you couldn't start the next day until 11am. Many of the shows we get in probably could make this work, but choose not to do so in order to not wipe out their margin of error in case there are problems they weren't expecting. We get some shows that load in at 9 and then plan on having a couple of hours off in the afternoon. Starting instead at 11 may well work, but the added stress of not having any time should a problem occur, could actually be worse for their heath than getting up 2 hours earlier!

 

I'm not sure what the right answer is, I'm just not sure that having one rule for house crew and another for freelancers can be justified in the long term.

[pete LD]

Re-reading this thread, another couple of points have come into my mind.

 

A few times, I've noticed on riders that promoters will specify that any local crew hired in by the venue need to have had a minimum of x hours rest since any previous work. Obviously, that could mean that the crew boss warns his team that if anyone asks when they last worked they should say "I just did a morning shift yesterday and haven't worked since", regardless of the truth. But even if they really do stick to this rule (and our guys would always do just that, if required by the rider) then it's entirely possible that the artiste's own team are not sticking to the same rules.

 

I remember a few years ago loading in to Newmarket racecourse and was surprised to find the "locals" were from Nottingham. after the evening load in they drove back to notts. then the next morning they are all there again having driven back. Then they hang around all day and do the load out until 1AM. the next day we had a show day load in to Doncaster and waiting for us when we got of the bus were the same Nottingham crew! having driven home from Newmarket and then up to Doncaster. They were useless as they were just to tired but who's fault is it? and who says the gig is off because the locals are to tired? The touring crew hadn't had enough sleep but at least we had the whole afternoon off the day before and after this load in we could go back to bed. No one there was thinking about not doing the gig because of fatigue. We just loaded in and the gig happened. Looking back maybe it shouldn't have but I wouldn't be making that call!

 

The other point is that EU WTD rules insist on an 11-hour break between shifts and I know that some venues do enforce this rule. This would mean that if you finished the load-out at midnight then you couldn't start the next day until 11am. Many of the shows we get in probably could make this work, but choose not to do so in order to not wipe out their margin of error in case there are problems they weren't expecting. We get some shows that load in at 9 and then plan on having a couple of hours off in the afternoon. Starting instead at 11 may well work, but the added stress of not having any time should a problem occur, could actually be worse for their heath than getting up 2 hours earlier!

 

I agree that a lot of the time a later load in would work fine and solve a fair amount of working time issues but as you say you eat into the margin for error time. The other issue is a tour tends to have the same load in time at every venue. When you get to liverpool Philharmonic the load in takes about 10 mins because the venue is very easy and the crew are very fast and you could have loaded in at 2pm and still be ready for sound check at 4. on the other had a small victorian theatre with a tight load in, hemp flying, a rake and slow crew will fill the whole day. I think TMs just keep the time the same to help with routine.

 

The tricky bit, irrespective of the legislation, is how it would be policed. A worker could easily clock off one job and go straight onto another shift. We'd almost need some personal equivalent of a tachograph to keep track of work and non-work activity.

 

I agree that a taco sounds like a sensible option but if you look how unstable the current tacos are for rock and roll drivers I wouldn't want the same level of restrictions for crew!

For an example, tour schedule went something like Southend, Day off, Dartford, Basingstoke, Guilford. The truck and bus drivers have less than an hours drive each night but they have no way of there taco knowing this and they then had to have a 48 hour break. I fully understand the rules if they are doing long drives every night but its just not fit for purpose when its a UK tour with drives less than 3 hours every night. Another one I remember is the load out finishing in Gateshead with the next gig in Edinbrough. Driver had to wait on the dock until 5am as thats when his taco said he could move. So instead of making the most of the clear roads then getting some sleep he had to have a nap then an early morning drive, hitting edingbrough in the morning rush, to then get an hours kip before getting up to back on to the dock.

 

Bit rambley but my point is something like a driving taco that is black and white dosent make it the right answer and can some times just make it all worse!

 

Pete

[Just Some Bloke]

 

I remember a few years ago loading in to Newmarket racecourse and was surprised to find the "locals" were from Nottingham. after the evening load in they drove back to notts. then the next morning they are all there again having driven back. Then they hang around all day and do the load out until 1AM. the next day we had a show day load in to Doncaster and waiting for us when we got of the bus were the same Nottingham crew! having driven home from Newmarket and then up to Doncaster. They were useless as they were just to tired but who's fault is it? and who says the gig is off because the locals are to tired? The touring crew hadn't had enough sleep but at least we had the whole afternoon off the day before and after this load in we could go back to bed. No one there was thinking about not doing the gig because of fatigue. We just loaded in and the gig happened. Looking back maybe it shouldn't have but I wouldn't be making that call!

 

 

My point entirely.

 

On a building site, if the crane operator comes to the end of his permitted hours when the work is not yet complete he has a choice: do I stay on and finish the job, ignoring the fact that I was supposed to clock off now, or do I make that point that my hours have come to an end and they will have to pick up again tomorrow? Whichever decision he makes will be accepted. If he decides to stay on then the Project Manager will be delighted and probably buy him a beer after the shift, but if he calls time then everyone will understand that there is nothing they can do about it and they will just have to do the right thing and pick up the next day.

 

It's not the same in Theatre and Events. If the show is at 19.30 then we can't just stop and pick up the next day! If the show doesn't happen the consequences are massive: hundreds or thousands of people will be disappointed; communications with these people will be a nightmare; there will be queues around the block; complaints will come in from all angles; the cost will be enormous; the kit that has gone in already will now have to come out, and if there is no crew any more then who is going to do that?; the venue will get a bad name; the crewing company will get a bad name; the promoter will get a bad name; the band will get a bad name; the whole thing is unthinkable. No-one is going to want to go through all this and so we will, like Pete has outlined above, continue to work in an unsafe manner. I include myself in this.

 

 

If it were the building trade we wouldn't get away with it. If it were the driving trade we simply couldn't do it. Because it's theatre or Rock and Roll then it happens.

[the kid]

They were useless as they were just to tired but who's fault is it? and who says the gig is off because the locals are to tired?

 

IMHO thats 100% the crew boss. If someone booked 20 guys over 4 full days over 2 sites and each day its the same guys, Knowing full well no one is paying for hotels / transport etc then its your responsability to say "I dont have the guys who can do that" or "sure I have the guys but we need accomidation".

 

Easier said than done. As JSB says its about rep, and if you say no to crew, you will loose out on jobs, and your guys have no work. Its a cycle.

[alistermorton]

If the show doesn't happen the consequences are massive: hundreds or thousands of people will be disappointed; communications with these people will be a nightmare; there will be queues around the block; complaints will come in from all angles; the cost will be enormous; the kit that has gone in already will now have to come out, and if there is no crew any more then who is going to do that?; the venue will get a bad name; the crewing company will get a bad name; the promoter will get a bad name; the band will get a bad name; the whole thing is unthinkable.

 

I suspect strongly that the courts' attitude if anything were to go wrong would be that you simply didn't hire enough crew to get the job done or manage the project properly; that's your decision but there are consequences of that decision. We all try to go the extra mile to get a show on, but we have to be aware of the consequences, and at the end of the day, someone's chopper is on the block. The buck stops somewhere. Do you want to be that person?

[sandall]

If the show doesn't happen the consequences are massive: hundreds or thousands of people will be disappointed; communications with these people will be a nightmare; there will be queues around the block; complaints will come in from all angles; the cost will be enormous; the kit that has gone in already will now have to come out, and if there is no crew any more then who is going to do that?; the venue will get a bad name; the crewing company will get a bad name; the promoter will get a bad name; the band will get a bad name; the whole thing is unthinkable.

All true, but if someone dies because they, or someone else in the crew, was too tired to function properly, all the above are going to happen anyway, some people will never work again, some may go to jail & some companies & individuals will be hit with eye-watering fines.Would it all have been worth it?

Edited August 30, 2019 by sandall

[Just Some Bloke]

If the show doesn't happen the consequences are massive: hundreds or thousands of people will be disappointed; communications with these people will be a nightmare; there will be queues around the block; complaints will come in from all angles; the cost will be enormous; the kit that has gone in already will now have to come out, and if there is no crew any more then who is going to do that?; the venue will get a bad name; the crewing company will get a bad name; the promoter will get a bad name; the band will get a bad name; the whole thing is unthinkable.

All true, but if someone dies because they, or someone else in the crew, was too tired to function properly, all the above are going to happen anyway, some people will never work again, some may go to jail & some companies & individuals will be hit with eye-watering fines.Would it all have been worth it?

 

Completely agree, but would you want to be the one to pull a show on the basis that the crew (who had all turned up) were a bit tired (especially if they themselves were saying that they were fine)? If you did, do you think you would ever find work again?

[Stuart91]

All true, but if someone dies because they, or someone else in the crew, was too tired to function properly, all the above are going to happen anyway, some people will never work again, some may go to jail & some companies & individuals will be hit with eye-watering fines.Would it all have been worth it?

 

And of course, the vast majority of shows with over-tired crew happen just fine. Near-misses get forgotten. So it becomes the norm, until an accident happens.

 

Similarly, decades ago there were plenty people who thought they could drive just fine after four or five pints, because they hadn't crashed - yet. And if you were foolish enough to make a habit of it now, chances are you would get a good few drunken journeys in before something critical happened. It took a lot of dedicated campaigns to make people aware of the dangers and shake the complacency surrounding it.

 

The biggest problem is that there's no breathalyser for tiredness. A few years ago there was a house guy who turned up to a 12pm call, reeking of booze and clearly unfit. I had no hesitancy raising the issue with the venue management, since it was blatantly obvious to anyone within sniffing distance. It would have been a bit harder if he was sober, but dog-tired. He might not have been any better in that condition, but it would have been much harder to bring it up.

[sandall]

Completely agree, but would you want to be the one to pull a show on the basis that the crew (who had all turned up) were a bit tired (especially if they themselves were saying that they were fine)? If you did, do you think you would ever find work again?

(a) Fortunately I've never found myself in that position, (b) probably not !!

 

.....decades ago there were plenty people who thought they could drive just fine after four or five pints.....

In my youth drove a Triumph Herald packed with Nurses all over Worcestershire after dance-nights at the BBC Club in Evesham after a lot more pints than that (slightly mitigated by knowing the roads, which were invariably empty at that time of night). But yes, good point.