SarahKane Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 I'm looking to produce a play that is sound only. This means that the cast, with microphones, will recite the play in the dark with ambient sound. I've never done anything like this and have chosen a church because of the acoustics. I could really use some help on how to go about this. The church has capacity for 250 and is quite large. There are four speakers, two on the pillars in front of the altar area and two at the back above a door in a kind of balcony. There is a microphone at the front. I want to create a 3D surround sound effect and am wondering how I go about doing this. I'm thinking of placing two more speakers at either side of the audience and those along with the other four should be ample. I've been advised to use QLab on Mac for sound effects and to plug the laptop into a mixing desk. Does anyone have any advice on how to go about setting this up please as that's all I know and could do with some help. I've also been quoted £300 for three microphones, a mixing desk and a speaker which I think is extortionate for two hours. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandall Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 An interesting project. As this is sound-only it is effectively live radio being played in a church. This means your actors need to be either fairly close-mic'd, or out of direct earshot of your audience. In radio drama actors often move up to a mic for their lines & then move back to make way for others; in general the less mics you use the more control you will have over the sound. You need a small mixer, with enough mic inputs for all your mics (+ at least 1 spare) & a stereo line input for your laptop. Unless your play is set in a single space you may also need an effects unit to add reverberation at times. As for sound effects - if you already have a Mac running Qlab then go with that, but if not you might find the free program "Multiplay" on an old Windows laptop much more user-friendly. If your quote of £300 is just for the hire then it sounds way over the top, but if it is for an outside professional to bring in the equipment & operate it for probably a couple of rehearsals (absolutely essential that you do at least 1 tech run in the space) & the show, that sounds not unreasonable - it's not 2 hours, it's a whole day. If you want them to make up your sound effects as well then that's another day's work. If someone speaking through the church's sound system gives you the acoustic "feel" you want then fine, but if not you need to find a different venue or a different loudspeaker system. The system will almost certainly be mono, so your "surround" effect is effectively the interaction between the loudspeakers & the fabric of the building. Ironically the better-designed the system the less suitable it might be for your purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkPAman Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 There’s a very high chance that the existing speakers at the church are set up as a mono system, possibly with the ones at the back delayed.This may mean you need more extra speakers to produce any type of 3D effect.As for price, depends on what the system is - does it include delivery, set up and collection?2 hours? Hmmmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandall Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 Sound systems in churches vary enormously. The worst I've met was (& arguably still is) St Paul's, but I was at a funeral in a large abbey (with a newish sound system) last week, sitting near the back, only a few feet from a very tall column-mounted speaker, but when 1 person was speaking I could hear nothing from this speaker; instead there was a rock-steady "image" from a point about 20 feet directly in front of me. When the choir were singing the image was much more diffuse, but still from the same place. Really impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the kid Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 Instantly reminds me of Ring. https://fueltheatre.com/projects/ring/ Darkness is hard to get, REALLY hard. 4 of us spent a day in a room hunting pinpricks of light. We got them all but it was an experiance. I would avoid trying anything remotley dark, especially in a church, unless you can build something to make it dark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyMitchell Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 If your quote of £300 is just for the hire then it sounds way over the top, but if it is for an outside professional to bring in the equipment & operate it for probably a couple of rehearsals (absolutely essential that you do at least 1 tech run in the space) & the show, that sounds not unreasonable - it's not 2 hours, it's a whole day. If you want them to make up your sound effects as well then that's another day's work. ^^^ This. <rant>All too often, people enquiring say "but it's only 2 hours" etc., not factoring in prep, loading, travel, setup, breakdown, travel, unloading (which makes it a day's work). That's before factoring in all the other associated costs that aren't seen at the job. They also don't realise one single loudspeaker or one single microphone may have cost two or three times what you're quoting for a whole day's work. But that's often irrelevant to the enquirer, as they've seen two microphones and two speakers in Costco for £49.</rant> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerry davies Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 If this is in summer I suggest you get into the church at around 3-4pm now and see just how much light all that stained glass lets in. Blacking out a normal church is a nightmare job, been there, done that, think hard before even considering it. If you have street lights nearby they too will make getting it dark to be a 'mare. The Kid spent a day seeking light leaks, I had four people spend a week on it. If you want voices and effects to originate from identifiably different places then you need a sound designer and hired in kit unless the church allows you to rewire their entire system. Personally I would avoid vocal amplification in a church for a "play for voices" other than for SFX, far easier to move the actors around the space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunray Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 If your quote of £300 is just for the hire then it sounds way over the top, but if it is for an outside professional to bring in the equipment & operate it for probably a couple of rehearsals (absolutely essential that you do at least 1 tech run in the space) & the show, that sounds not unreasonable - it's not 2 hours, it's a whole day. If you want them to make up your sound effects as well then that's another day's work.All too often, people enquiring say "but it's only 2 hours" etc., not factoring in prep, loading, travel, setup, breakdown, travel, unloading (which makes it a day's work). That's before factoring in all the other associated costs that aren't seen at the job. They also don't realise one single loudspeaker or one single microphone may have cost two or three times what you're quoting for a whole day's work. But that's often irrelevant to the enquirer, as they've seen two microphones and two speakers in Costco for £49. I have quite often been on the same jobs as a guy who has 2 of these: https://cpc.farnell.com/pulse/pmh200kit/pa-system-mixer-amp-2-speakers/dp/DP31875 . His minimum is £350 and seems to get loads of weddings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandall Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 I have quite often been on the same jobs as a guy who has 2 of these: https://cpc.farnell....kers/dp/DP31875 . His minimum is £350 and seems to get loads of weddings.The general rule for weddings seems to be - work out a price for the job, then double it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_korman Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 I have quite often been on the same jobs as a guy who has 2 of these: https://cpc.farnell....kers/dp/DP31875 . His minimum is £350 and seems to get loads of weddings.The general rule for weddings seems to be - work out a price for the job, then double it Yes - the vast majority of people have: a) never heard a live orchestra, choir, soloist or band andb) mostly listen to heavily compressed noise - er sorry, I mean music - on cheap ear-buds all they care about at a wedding is that the speeches are intelligible and that they get to sing "Oops Upside Your Head" at the end of the evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Pricing in London does sound expensive BUT That's largely imposed by the cost of transport and parking and the crew needed to load and unload a van while trying to avoid parking tickets and tow away charges. A price capped oyster card just doesn't help when there are amps and speakers to move and load. Assume that the maximum traffic speed in London is 12 mph but during the day/school run/rush hour traffic speed is way less than that, maybe 2 - 5 mph.Additionally once some kit is booked out for an hour it's highly unlikely to go out again that day so it goes out for a full day's fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Churches always worry me as venues. Like others here, I've done quite a few over the years = both lighting and sound, and the music based ones have always been good and the speech ones very variable. I'm planning one at the moment where a church has too little reverberation, which has never happened before! Like others have said - they're difficult to make warm, difficult to make dark, and the acoustics normally conspire with the other 'features' to make them difficult. No cable routes, no useful places to hang things, and of course, rules that prevent you moving things, screwing into things, and even sticking gaffer tape to. Most done;t even have proper power available, but LEDs do help here. Hiring in equipment to interface with the church system is also problematic - they rarely have what would be termed modern and professional standard equipment. Probably works for the Sunday services but not for what you are talking about. To make voices appear from different locations takes at least 4 independent speakers and a mixer that can place a sound within the soundscape. I'd really advise you get a local expert in to help you. Not much good if everyone comes out saying "nice idea but I couldn't understand a word" I did a few Son et Lumiere events, and they are tough to make intelligible. The director simple wrote in the script - "The Magi arrive at the great doors, and process down towards the Nave. What he meant of course was the sound travelled down the aisle so people were following nothing but a puddle of light that moved. A big church and that one cue took 8 loudspeakers to make it happen in a way where people could understand the words. In the tests we started with two at one end and two at the other, and at the point in the middle, there were two sets of paths and reflections and it muddled the sound so much it was in a blurring mess. The people nearest the speakers had good audio. Those at a distance hear a mess and if they get multiple paths - it falls apart badly. The church sound specialists take great care and skill ion their designs to get the arrival time at the listeners ears coherent. That doesn't work when the system tries do reverse things with the further speakers being the important ones. This is a very complicated event you are planning IF the venue has church like acoustics. It will work in deader spaces with your simplistic outlook. On the pricing front - it's 300 for a day's hire, not two hours. Hire firms don't do their business in hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunray Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 If even Paul can manage a double post, what chance is there for the rest of us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 How odd? Don't remember anything weird - but I will zap it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunray Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 <br />How odd? Don't remember anything weird - but I will zap it!<br /><br /><br /><br /> There doesn't have to be anything weird on this forum to end up with strange posts. And on this occasion I didn't see the formatting either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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