Lighting Setup in Unfamiliar/Unknown Venues

[Uriahdemon]

Hi,

 

I am pretty new to this hence what is probably a pretty basic question. I have an opportunity later in the year to do some shows with a band around the UK. I have done a couple so far but these will be further afield and mostly I will be unable to use my own rig.

So the scenario I am thinking of is a venue with some lighting installed, I have been unable to obtain the tech specs, the fixtures do not operate RDM (I have a Zero88 FLX Desk), fixtures are not easy to get to. Just how would you prepare to crack this nut. Any advice most welcome..................??

[paulears]

I doubt anyone operates an RDM system now - DMX is the norm, and the return data system was a niche market.

 

What kinds of venues will you be visiting? The scale of the shows is quite important. My band go to theatres all over, and the venues expect one of two things from the bands who tour to them. They either expect the band to be 100% self contained and bring in everything. They may well hang a few pieces of truss and give you access to the venue DMX system to get some face light from FOH - but you then operate your kit, with a bit of theirs. The alternative is that you take what they have in total, and add some of your kit to that - so your rider probably says things like "we require a minimum 3 colour wash of the full stage, and 5 specials focussed on the day to cover centre mic, keys, guitar, bass and drums." You call the show, or leave it to them to do on their own. Some venues will have extra moving lights and toys, and a hazer. These may be free or charged for - discuss in advance, but if you elect top not pay, then you probably get the washes. If you pay, then with an enthusiastic LX op you get nice lights, with a bored one, you might get a colour change each song ...... maybe. You can bring in a floor package - easy to set and rig, which you work, over their wash lighting. Some venues may be so bad that your own rig would be so much better. If they won't supply technical specs, then assume you will get very little. Be aware that if you ask for a red/blue/green 3 colour wash, you could get hit with a colour call charge - as their washes could be warm, cool and white!

 

If you want the best and consistent results, then your own kit can often be better, if you have budget and truck space. If you do one nighters, then costs can mount up - they may not have a full crew in, so if you want lots of specific things, there will be a cost, plus another cost to restore the venue back to the status quo. We carry a very small but effective LX kit - some RGBW washes on T Bars, plus a dozen LED bars, which if necessary we will put out and control ourselves in the wish-washy venues. The LED bars could go on the floor in front of each band member, dotted around vertically mounted on boom mic stands. Despite me having plenty of LX kit, and being lighting savvy, for the band, I tend to play down lighting because I simply cannot do it properly on the budget, have little available van space, and frankly am content to accept illumination rather than effect. I cannot afford an extra person. In my theatre venue where we have dozens of one-nighter music shows each year, very few bring lights of any kind, taking pot luck.

 

 

You also have to think about your lighting desk - how easy is it to repatch to a venues system and equipment? You will have to adapt to their system - so faced with dozens of lights with DMX attribute lists you don't have - how will you do it?

[RedDog]

Get in early, use the house desk. worked with many an LD who's had to deal with this scenario.

Hi,

 

I am pretty new to this hence what is probably a pretty basic question. I have an opportunity later in the year to do some shows with a band around the UK. I have done a couple so far but these will be further afield and mostly I will be unable to use my own rig.

So the scenario I am thinking of is a venue with some lighting installed, I have been unable to obtain the tech specs, the fixtures do not operate RDM (I have a Zero88 FLX Desk), fixtures are not easy to get to. Just how would you prepare to crack this nut. Any advice most welcome..................??

[timsabre]

I doubt anyone operates an RDM system now - DMX is the norm, and the return data system was a niche market.

This is a diversion from the question, but RDM is just a sub part of the DMX spec. I think it is actually becoming more commonly available rather than less. It just requires the use of compliant splitter/buffers which can pass the return data back, many places do have them.

That said, RDM is not the answer to your problem. Most LD's would pre program the show on their desk, then use the morph/exchange fixtures function (not sure what Zero88 call it) to swap the fixtures in the show to the venue's fixtures when you get there (in advance would be nice, but as you have found it can be difficult to get this information). You'd program the show with palettes so that you just need to reprogram a few palettes rather than reprogramming all the cues in the show.

 

[Edward- Z88]

Hello,

 

Personally I’d agree with Tim, it seems RDM implementation in fixtures and buffers is becoming better and more common. However, this won’t really solve this problem. Even if FLX does discover the venue’s fixtures with RigSync, you’ll then need to apply these fixtures to your pre-programming.

As Tim says, you’ll probably want to be using palettes you can update when you get into each venue, and you’ll need to use Change Profiles- our equivalent of Fixture Morph/ exchange. Therefore when you’ve programmed using one venues fixtures and get to the next venues rig, you can tap SETUP, select the fixtures you want to swap out, and tap Change Profiles- you can then of course amend DMX addresses.

If you’d like further information with the console side, feel free to message me directly.

 

Edward

[Junior8]

Get in early, use the house desk. worked with many an LD who's had to deal with this scenario.

 

That's about it. In most cases you will be able to get specs. But also in some cases it will also say that all rigging has to be done by house staff - I can think of one large venue here where this is the case. You'll often be faced with pretty much a fixed layout they are reluctant to mess with. The spec will usually give a pretty clear indication of this. Keep it simple. If, as you say in the OP, you mostly can't travel your own rig I'd advise you not to bother at all. Get used to working with the house staff and what they have got and get the best out of that that time will allow. Most of the audience won't care anyway...

 

 

 

 

 

[niclights]

Of course it is very common to use the house console and I guess it depends a lot on how complex your show is and your level of experience but if the house console is not something you're (as) familiar with and you have the option of bringing your own I would say this is a significant advantage for you, especially if you have a show that has been programmed in a well structured way that can be adapted relatively easily to different fixtures/counts with software functions. Even if you have nothing programmed it can often be better to use something you know.

 

House gives you patch sheet on arrival, patch/exchange as required, hook up and then tweak an existing or start programming a new show. Speaking from many years experience as a house engineer I have seen this done countless times and, while it can be somewhat inconvenient to accommodate the console (particularly if the house console needs to remain for any reason), it does mean the house engineer doesn't have to babysit you and removes that part of their responsibility. If you are going to use your own console and there are support bands playing before you the venue will usually be very appreciative if you can operate all bands using it as this will mean there is no need to have the house console (or the need to swap lines). My only concern might be the fact that you can't get a patch in advance. While you don't need this it does seem a bit strange and might suggest it is not common practice in these venues. (I'm assuming in all this that your band is headlining. If they are not then use the house console!)

[chrislea_10outof10]

Hi,

 

I am pretty new to this hence what is probably a pretty basic question. I have an opportunity later in the year to do some shows with a band around the UK. I have done a couple so far but these will be further afield and mostly I will be unable to use my own rig.

So the scenario I am thinking of is a venue with some lighting installed, I have been unable to obtain the tech specs, the fixtures do not operate RDM (I have a Zero88 FLX Desk), fixtures are not easy to get to. Just how would you prepare to crack this nut. Any advice most welcome..................??

 

Hi, this is my first reply here on blue room, but certainly not my first rodeo so I hope you won't mind my first post in reply to yours...��

 

It is certainly a question that does pop up now and then. But, some of the comments below do make sense.

 

We supply to a lot of touring band LD's. Like you they go out with the band and expect to use what the venue have. More often than not, those LD's usually email the venue ahead and request certain set ups within their house rig. Usually this is then all patched on his/her universe 1. The touring LD usually then takes a floor package that has already been programmed on univers 2 or more. The idea is that the house rig will never be 100% the same as every venue varies in stock,

 

So, I would suggest focus on a touring floor package, get that programmed to perfection on your chosen console, then just play or busk with what ever the house rig offers.

 

I hope this helps. Please drop me a line if I can be of any further assistance.

[paulears]

I don't see it quite this simple. Lots of people tour a nice floor package which looks pretty, but some of the LDs, and I use the term quite loosely are looking entirely at looks they can change and manipulate and look wonderful in the photos everyone takes, when the actual musician/band lighting is then 4 or 5 specials - usually profiles from front of house or maybe a stage bar for the drummer. Most theatres can offer this, just picking the most suitable profiles from their rig, de-gelling them, focussing them and then that's it. You see faces and the guitars and stuff and leave the clever lighting on the floor doing pretty things in the air. Then the band tour into somewhere with no FOH kit, or FOH kit that cannot be moved, or just cannot get small enough with the lens so it gets shuttered off and what is left on faces is a glimmer. This is my pet hate - the floor package blasts the hell out of the air, and somewhere in there is a few bods who people just can't see properly. The LDs have designed a purely air package without any thought to illumination of the people who pay the hire fees, who stand in the dark. I just find it amazing that the LDs don't light the band, and they leave that to the unknown venues to do, which in the main, they do - but averagely. My own venue spend all our ladder time re-focussing source 4's. Sometimes twice when the first positions get wrecked when everything on stage gets moved to clear the floor package beams. Mic stands sometimes move just a metre or so, and you get the ladder out again, and they don't even notice!

 

The theatrical LDs who used to light the sets, not the actors, had the same issues, but then the trend shifted to lighting the actors and the spill lit the set, then it seemed to reverse again in phases. There's also the problem of control. Loads of people tour a desk that could grab control of a house rig if it was a good one, but they don't have time to find the personalities as they are growing faster than the updates can cope with, so you see loads of very nice house kit going unused because they do not wish to split control to a house operator, but cannot find the head personality files for lights that they've not got in their un-updated desk. Even with the morphing features, you still need to know what something is! Loads of riders still ask for 3 or 4 colour washes, yet never use them. Sometimes there could be a LD with imagination - we had one last week who spotted a bar with 18 PAR cans on it, green, gold and yellow - left from a previous show, and got us to spread them out from 3 clusters of 6 into 18 evenly spaced, with all cells out. It did look pretty good as a punch. Good call from him. We didn't put it back and are using it ourselves.

 

A long time ago, bands would always have a couple of tall stands and T-bars for downstage, pointing up and across, face light - just in case. At worst, with no venue lighting, you could see the bands. Sure, it was flat and glarey for the band, but the audience could see them. Now, nobody uses them, spending money on prettiness, not illumination. Bad trend, I think.

[timsabre]

The thing is a lot of bands like this dark moody backlit look. They are thinking of the overall picture made by the lighting, and you can make a much bigger more interesting picture using beams in the air than a few blokes in spotlights on the stage.

In my opinion the LD's job is to realise the band's vision for their show, not to make sure the audience can see them. (Personally I always try to light the band too, unless they specifically don't want it. But a big flat white wash from FOH is equally as horrible as a big dazzling floor package.)

[chrislea_10outof10]

Paulears, I completely agree with you that the band need to be lit. Of course they do. I think over time, the discipline of an "LD" has changed. Design ideas are constantly changing and are more often than not, based on what technology is out there at that time. I echo the comments of Timsabre and what the role of an LD is defined as. If a band has a specific look in mind, it would be so much easier to design, spec and tour a floor package and have that look exactly the same for every show, than it is to re-design every show based on what each venue has.

 

You mention about bands touring into a venue with no FOH kit only to realise that venue doesn't have any either. I think it would be a catastrophic error on the tour managers part, if not the LD/OPs part, for an act to go into a venue blind and not know what lays in wait. If a tour manager has done their job correctly, the LD can plan for such shows and sub in the extra kit when and if at all needed - either at the cost to the venue or to the band.

 

More often than not, the types of venues that already hold a house rig, for example KOKO, they already have that patched into 1 or 2 universes. And if it is just face light that you need, just needing to patch 12 dimmers will certainly get you to the pub quicker.

 

Floor packages can took exceptionally good, if designed tastefully.

[Uriahdemon]

Thanks.... some good info to ponder on. Apologies for the delay in replying.

I doubt anyone operates an RDM system now - DMX is the norm, and the return data system was a niche market.

 

What kinds of venues will you be visiting? The scale of the shows is quite important. My band go to theatres all over, and the venues expect one of two things from the bands who tour to them. They either expect the band to be 100% self contained and bring in everything. They may well hang a few pieces of truss and give you access to the venue DMX system to get some face light from FOH - but you then operate your kit, with a bit of theirs. The alternative is that you take what they have in total, and add some of your kit to that - so your rider probably says things like "we require a minimum 3 colour wash of the full stage, and 5 specials focussed on the day to cover centre mic, keys, guitar, bass and drums." You call the show, or leave it to them to do on their own. Some venues will have extra moving lights and toys, and a hazer. These may be free or charged for - discuss in advance, but if you elect top not pay, then you probably get the washes. If you pay, then with an enthusiastic LX op you get nice lights, with a bored one, you might get a colour change each song ...... maybe. You can bring in a floor package - easy to set and rig, which you work, over their wash lighting. Some venues may be so bad that your own rig would be so much better. If they won't supply technical specs, then assume you will get very little. Be aware that if you ask for a red/blue/green 3 colour wash, you could get hit with a colour call charge - as their washes could be warm, cool and white!

 

If you want the best and consistent results, then your own kit can often be better, if you have budget and truck space. If you do one nighters, then costs can mount up - they may not have a full crew in, so if you want lots of specific things, there will be a cost, plus another cost to restore the venue back to the status quo. We carry a very small but effective LX kit - some RGBW washes on T Bars, plus a dozen LED bars, which if necessary we will put out and control ourselves in the wish-washy venues. The LED bars could go on the floor in front of each band member, dotted around vertically mounted on boom mic stands. Despite me having plenty of LX kit, and being lighting savvy, for the band, I tend to play down lighting because I simply cannot do it properly on the budget, have little available van space, and frankly am content to accept illumination rather than effect. I cannot afford an extra person. In my theatre venue where we have dozens of one-nighter music shows each year, very few bring lights of any kind, taking pot luck.

 

 

You also have to think about your lighting desk - how easy is it to repatch to a venues system and equipment? You will have to adapt to their system - so faced with dozens of lights with DMX attribute lists you don't have - how will you do it?

 

Unfortunately sometimes we may not have that luxury

Get in early, use the house desk. worked with many an LD who's had to deal with this scenario.

Hi,

 

I am pretty new to this hence what is probably a pretty basic question. I have an opportunity later in the year to do some shows with a band around the UK. I have done a couple so far but these will be further afield and mostly I will be unable to use my own rig.

So the scenario I am thinking of is a venue with some lighting installed, I have been unable to obtain the tech specs, the fixtures do not operate RDM (I have a Zero88 FLX Desk), fixtures are not easy to get to. Just how would you prepare to crack this nut. Any advice most welcome..................??

 

Thanks Ed, that is pretty much the approach I am going to take however I have a few questions around that please.

 

So I have a show pre-programmed and arrive at a venue with different fixtures eg, to keep it simple the movers and the PARS.

 

I know how to swap out the fixtures but what if - the fixture library on the desk does not contain the fixtures I need. Also the fixtures themselves have been set up using a different amount of channels i.e. physically selected say 6 channels as opposed to 12 on the fixture, its on a flying truss that cannot be got at.

Hello,

 

Personally I'd agree with Tim, it seems RDM implementation in fixtures and buffers is becoming better and more common. However, this won't really solve this problem. Even if FLX does discover the venue's fixtures with RigSync, you'll then need to apply these fixtures to your pre-programming.

As Tim says, you'll probably want to be using palettes you can update when you get into each venue, and you'll need to use Change Profiles- our equivalent of Fixture Morph/ exchange. Therefore when you've programmed using one venues fixtures and get to the next venues rig, you can tap SETUP, select the fixtures you want to swap out, and tap Change Profiles- you can then of course amend DMX addresses.

If you'd like further information with the console side, feel free to message me directly.

 

Edward

 

I get the point entirely and have a couple of powerful PARS which I set up FOH left and right to go across the stage to catch the folks up front. Not ideal but I also believe there is a need for that most of the time. There are occasions when the mood benefits from lights behind them.

I don't see it quite this simple. Lots of people tour a nice floor package which looks pretty, but some of the LDs, and I use the term quite loosely are looking entirely at looks they can change and manipulate and look wonderful in the photos everyone takes, when the actual musician/band lighting is then 4 or 5 specials - usually profiles from front of house or maybe a stage bar for the drummer. Most theatres can offer this, just picking the most suitable profiles from their rig, de-gelling them, focussing them and then that's it. You see faces and the guitars and stuff and leave the clever lighting on the floor doing pretty things in the air. Then the band tour into somewhere with no FOH kit, or FOH kit that cannot be moved, or just cannot get small enough with the lens so it gets shuttered off and what is left on faces is a glimmer. This is my pet hate - the floor package blasts the hell out of the air, and somewhere in there is a few bods who people just can't see properly. The LDs have designed a purely air package without any thought to illumination of the people who pay the hire fees, who stand in the dark. I just find it amazing that the LDs don't light the band, and they leave that to the unknown venues to do, which in the main, they do - but averagely. My own venue spend all our ladder time re-focussing source 4's. Sometimes twice when the first positions get wrecked when everything on stage gets moved to clear the floor package beams. Mic stands sometimes move just a metre or so, and you get the ladder out again, and they don't even notice!

 

The theatrical LDs who used to light the sets, not the actors, had the same issues, but then the trend shifted to lighting the actors and the spill lit the set, then it seemed to reverse again in phases. There's also the problem of control. Loads of people tour a desk that could grab control of a house rig if it was a good one, but they don't have time to find the personalities as they are growing faster than the updates can cope with, so you see loads of very nice house kit going unused because they do not wish to split control to a house operator, but cannot find the head personality files for lights that they've not got in their un-updated desk. Even with the morphing features, you still need to know what something is! Loads of riders still ask for 3 or 4 colour washes, yet never use them. Sometimes there could be a LD with imagination - we had one last week who spotted a bar with 18 PAR cans on it, green, gold and yellow - left from a previous show, and got us to spread them out from 3 clusters of 6 into 18 evenly spaced, with all cells out. It did look pretty good as a punch. Good call from him. We didn't put it back and are using it ourselves.

 

A long time ago, bands would always have a couple of tall stands and T-bars for downstage, pointing up and across, face light - just in case. At worst, with no venue lighting, you could see the bands. Sure, it was flat and glarey for the band, but the audience could see them. Now, nobody uses them, spending money on prettiness, not illumination. Bad trend, I think.

[Edward- Z88]

Hello,

 

Thanks Ed, that is pretty much the approach I am going to take however I have a few questions around that please.

So I have a show pre-programmed and arrive at a venue with different fixtures eg, to keep it simple the movers and the PARS.

I know how to swap out the fixtures but what if - the fixture library on the desk does not contain the fixtures I need. Also the fixtures themselves have been set up using a different amount of channels i.e. physically selected say 6 channels as opposed to 12 on the fixture, its on a flying truss that cannot be got at.

 

If the current Zero 88 Fixture Library (v36) doesn't contain the fixture you need, you can either make a fixture profile yourself using the Fixture Tools software for Windows, or you can drop us an email to FixtureSupport@zero88.com and one of the team will be able to make the file for you. You can then load this file into the console, and when you tap Change Profiles it will appear in the fixture list for you to choose.

 

The console can swap out any fixture to any other type of fixture. Therefore if you are swapping out a complex moving head to a much simpler reduced fixture, it will mean that some of your programming information will be lost, and you will have to review the cues the fixture is used in and tweak them. If the replacement fixture is RDM enabled, and does have the ability to remotely change its mode to a higher channel count, you can let the console discover it using RigSync. When discovered and patched you can remotely change its mode and DMX address to something more useful to you. Then disable RDM and delete the discovered fixture, and change profiles of your original fixture to match the settings you just remotely adjusted on your replacement.

 

Hope that helps, any queries let me know.

 

Edward

[david.elsbury]

you can let the console discover it using RigSync. When discovered and patched you can remotely change its mode and DMX address to something more useful to you. Then disable RDM and delete the discovered fixture, and change profiles of your original fixture to match the settings you just remotely adjusted on your replacement.

Which you best remember to put back when your show is over- else you’ll have an irate venue crew! I don’t think it’s necessary (or good manners) to need to re address someone else’s rig. The tools provided will allow you to get it into the console and merge the programming as best you can.

Also Edward; great suggestions (and sales pitch ;) ) but someone turning up at the venue on get in day is probably unlikely to be able to make use of the email request service from you- if it’s a non standard fixture (and it must be, otherwise it would be in the library already) then who knows if it even matches the documentation available! ?... let alone holding the show till you email back a file ?

[Uriahdemon]

Thanks all, your replies are much appreciated.

 

 

I will stay away from the functionality of any particular desks as I see this as a generic problem. I am actually quite happy with mine but what this topic has highlighted is that there will be occasions when within a pre-programmed show, there may not be a way of either replacing profiles for the in house fixtures (and it coming good) or making your own fixture profiles within the limited time from get in to show time. So thanks for all that.

 

My approach will be if arriving at a venue without firm Tech Specs (and happy for any comments, also assuming RDM not available on in house fixtures):

 

Pitch up with Pre-programmed ground rig. Add in house fixtures onto that (if possible given the discussion here) and that will be that.

 

Is it considered an unnecessary overhead prior to the event to ask for in addition to the in house fixture list the DMX addresses and the fixture positions .....??

 

Rgds

 

Mac