PA spec for rock band in a marquee

[BigYinUK]

Hi all

 

I do apologise as I know how much you all hate this type of question but I have to ask.

 

I have to provide a PA for 2 rock bands in a marquee approx 16m x 20m (might be bigger) about 300-400 people expected.

 

Bands are classic heavy rock and a MOD rock (60s) band. Not huge lineups- 5 vox, 2 guitars, drums, bass. So probably 16-20 channels ish

 

I'm having quite a disagreement with the promoter over the "size" of PA required.

 

He thinks (bless him) that a couple of EV ZLX12Ps plus (maybe if he can afford it) a ELX18SP sub will hack it.

 

I'm not planning to blow the doors off but that seems a little on the small size.

 

Anyone care to stick their neck out?

 

Regards

[bruce]

It does sound a touch under-specced by today’s standard, but it’s still significantly more powerful than the rig that powered “The Stones in the Park” in 1969, to an audience approaching half a million. So if your 1960’s band are looking for authenticity.... :)

[Stuart91]

That sounds like a decent spec for the drum fill, what about the rest of the PA?

 

Assuming that the bands need to fill the whole venue (rather than playing in a corner at a drinks reception, for instance) I'd be looking for something significantly more powerful. Obviously there are many different options available, but in terms of well known boxes that are readily available for hire, two stacks of D&B C7 would be a decent start, but ideally four - especially if you need wider coverage angle. A lot depends on how loud the bands actually are - how much backline level are you competing with, and are the bands bringing their own engineers?

 

Also, bear in mind that you may well need chunkier monitors than usual, and don't overlook the power - make sure there is ample available, or a suitable generator on site. If the promoter is skimping on PA it's unlikely they will be generous with the power provision. In a similar vein, is there going to be a decent sized stage? Sometimes the marquee company will throw in a couple of decks as part of their package, which ticks a box but isn't going to accommodate the kind of line up you're talking about.

[BigYinUK]

Funnily enough 2 (or 4) stacks of C7 was pretty much what I suggested and was told, nonsense a 1kW rig (as in the EV system above) will be fine for us.

 

I seem to have had that type of conversation a few too many times recently. Its wearying :(

 

Power is another issue that wears thin.

 

I was at a job the other week in Exeter and was assured, there'd be "plenty of power - we've had huge rigs in here". Only to find just one single 6 way 13A plug board was all there was for FOH, console, backline, monitors and lights.

 

The rig is 10kW of EV powered RCF with 5 EV ZLX12Ps as mons.

 

Needless to say within 10 minutes the power had tripped.

 

I'd already asked prior to arriving if they had a 32A supply in the room and was told no. When we went into the back room to reset the fuses, there next to the fuse box was something that looked suspiciously like a 32A feed. "Can I use that?" I asked. "Sure, what is it?" was the reply.... so out came the distro :)

 

Groan... :(

[Jivemaster]

Marquees are poor at keeping sound in so the trade off will always be loud enough inside but not too loud outside.

[ImagineerTom]

You also need to check that the promoter hasn't asked for such a wimpy system BECAUSE marquee are cack at keeping sound in. Increasingly restrictions are being imposed on marquees/sites/licenses as to the sound levels and disturbance to neighbours.

[BigYinUK]

Very very doubtful, given what and where it is (and I can't say).

 

We've just put a spec together (effectively equiv of 2 stacks of C7) with a sensibly worded list of reasons why we need what we've spec'd and emailed him. Hopefully he'll go with it.

 

At the end of the day, its a prestigious gig, so he too will look bad if it sounds awful, not just the bands.

 

If it was in a room, then two stacks of C7 would be more than ample, but as soon as anyone mentions "marquee", I pretty much think of that as outdoors for all the good plastic walls do at the keeping sound in.

 

I don't mix loud most of the time. Last week I did the first show that I've done all on my own for a number of years and had lots of compliments that the level was ideal, loud enough for a heavy rock show, but no ringing ears at the end of the evening. Quite surprising given my shot hearing but its good to feel you're still getting something right at 58 yrs B-)

 

We did do one last year where the promoter kept asking us to turn it up, to the point where a recessed light fitting spent the evening spinning round and showering the bass player with plaster dust. Just at the end of the evening it fell out, hitting the bass player on the head. :** laughs out loud **:

[dbuckley]

A bin, a horn and a phillishave a side will do nicely.

 

About the same power rating as a couple of modern 12 inch boxes, but with a lot more rock authenticity. It'll just look right.

[Stuart91]

It'll just look right.

 

In the same way that hipsters pay vastly inflated prices for chromed Patt lanterns, I wonder if there's a market for refurbished "classic" PA systems?

 

If a tribute act are trying to be authentic in every other way, slick new cabinets with blue LED indicators are a bit of an anachronism. Maybe stick modern components in old cabinets, or build an entirely new system that looks the part?

[dbuckley]

Clair S4 is genuine 70s, often seen on eBay :)

[Simon Lewis]

Clair S4 is genuine 70s, often seen on eBay :)

 

Along with the manual forklift to move it? ;-)

[empyfree]

I'm having the opposite problem at the moment. Next weeks headline act (charity ball in a marquee) wants hangs of D&B plus l acoustics arcs as stage fills! Never mind the fact there's a 96db limit on the site (give or take a bit of subjective tinkering).

 

Drum sub? Do I really have to provide that? You won't be allowed to turn it on!

 

Bring on the silent disco!

[alistermorton]

It'll just look right.

 

In the same way that hipsters pay vastly inflated prices for chromed Patt lanterns, I wonder if there's a market for refurbished "classic" PA systems?

 

If a tribute act are trying to be authentic in every other way, slick new cabinets with blue LED indicators are a bit of an anachronism. Maybe stick modern components in old cabinets, or build an entirely new system that looks the part?

 

Ripped vinyl covering, scuffed alli panels, nice orange neons instead of LEDs, chicken head knobs on the controls, jobs a good'un.

[S&L]

obviously the client has no clue but how much you need is going to depend on the rig to hand.

the rule of thumb I have been handed a number of times is 3 to 5 times the indoor size of an outdoor event.

I would put my tongue in cheek when considering that size but 3 times the size for a marquee is probably about right.

I do an outdoor marquee festival each summer, where the brief is 'not too loud please' and the artists are a mix of acoustic and electric. it's about 200 cap. though they squeeze in much more and more listen outside.

this year I took in 4 x15" turbosound subs and 2 x15" hk tops, nominally 3.6kW and it just about gets away with it. (everything through the PA)

As you will know you need more headroom for live music than for programme music but something interesting happens if you put an acoustic artist through the system without much noise coming from the stage and without a lot of bottom end to fill the subs - to get music to sound anything like the same subjective volume, I really have to push the faders hard and drive those top boxes hard.

 

by contrast later this summer I did a large outdoor event - 300 plus cap with everything from choirs to rock bands. the boxes weren't mine - old ASS boxes - two long throw subs each with 2x15" drivers. two long throw tops each with 2x10" drivers plus horn. nominally 4kW total and the system more than coped, despite the drivers probably not being quite as good as the turbosound - in fact the difference was marked - but the key here was that these ASS boxes were designed to fill large areas.

 

so from experience I would say my rules of thumb are:

1. a marque probably needs 2-3 times as much as a similar indoor event.

2. live music needs much more capacity in the boxes and amps than playback music

3. if your music is predominantly acoustic, don't look at the subs to help you out too much.

4. get the right boxes for the right application - long throw works best for open areas.

5. when using long throw boxes in outdoor spaces you can't compare to standard boxes indoors - you may not need 3 times the size if the boxes are long throw.

[noiseman]

Marquees are bass-sucking voids in my experience and the material can in particular have a huge effect on how well the sound projects and reflects with the bass often being louder outside than it is inside!

For a canvas type construction I'd usually spec a system at least 3-4 times what I'd like to see at an indoor venue with a bias towards a more bass heavy ratio vs tops.