Do I need an audio interface?

[EventMan]

Firstly, forgive the pre-amble, but I have spent a lot of time trying to find an answer to my question, and most of the forum threads tend to descend into sneering reposts of "why on earth do you want to do that" and the such-like!

Here's the situation:

 

In our nascent and very hobby-ish band, our keyboard player has the memory of a goldfish. Unable to remember even the basic outline of a score, he has been using an array of music stands to support his sheet music - which can stretch to six or seven feet on a long song!

 

To assist him, I have set him up with a monitor and the very good software "MidiIllustrator" which displays a MIDI file as music notation with a cursor to follow. This works well, and the metronome helps him and the drummer to keep in sync with each other.

 

I now want to move things on a bit and introduce some of the other MIDI tracks as backing instrumentation, and also to "deputise" for band members if they are unable to make a practice session or a gig (if we ever get one!).

 

So, what I need to do is get the MIDI tracks out of my PC and into separate channels on my analogue mixer so that they can be adjusted into the main mix with the live sounds. (I realise that I could adjust volumes and/or mute tracks in the software's sequencer, but that is not so good in a live situation).

 

My question, therefore is: do I need an audio/MIDI interface (such as the Behringer FCA1616 [I'm a pauper] or Focusrite Scarlett), something else, or am I whistling in the wind?

 

I'm not interested in getting data into the PC.

 

Any help will be much appreciated, thanks

[pete10uk]

I'm not 100% sure what your after as it's not that clear to me but if your just after getting audio out of a PC running some midi software which triggers audio then you could just connect the headphone out of the PC to your desk, or better still use a di box to connect it. As to the point about muting and adjusting the tracks in the software, I can't see any way around that as you would need to ensure the PC would need to output only the audio you want to out of your PA.

 

This said I may have got the wrong end of what your after. Maybe a little more info would clear this up.

[revbobuk]

I'm sure others will pitch in. But yes, to do what you are asking needs a multi-channel audio interface, as you want each midi track to come into a separate audio channel. You need as many 'outs' on your audio interface as you have channels to use on your mixer. If the mixer isn't a 'given' then several of the current crop of digital mixer can combine both functions in one box - so you could use an X32 rack or an XR18 both as mixer and as soundcard.

[EventMan]

I'm not 100% sure what your after as it's not that clear to me but if your just after getting audio out of a PC running some midi software which triggers audio then you could just connect the headphone out of the PC to your desk, or better still use a di box to connect it. As to the point about muting and adjusting the tracks in the software, I can't see any way around that as you would need to ensure the PC would need to output only the audio you want to out of your PA.

 

This said I may have got the wrong end of what your after. Maybe a little more info would clear this up.

 

Your reply has got me thinking; in my naivety, I am assuming that the following could happen:

MIDI track 1>Synthesiser (e.g. Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth)>USB/FireWire Out>(Interface?)>Mixer Channel 1

MIDI track 2>Synthesiser>USB/FireWire Out>(Interface?)>Mixer Channel 2

MIDI track 3>Synthesiser>USB/FireWire Out>(Interface?)>Mixer Channel 3

MIDI track 4>Synthesiser>USB/FireWire Out>(Interface?)>Mixer Channel 4

Etc., etc.

But do the tracks get mixed by the Wavetable's mixer and only then outputted as audio?

 

 

 

[sam.spoons]

It sounds as if you need either a multi channel audio interface or a midi interface, the former would be if you had recorded your tracks as audio (which would be the case for the guitarist/s and bass player, and the drummer if he's playing an acoustic kit, the latter, midi interface could take care of e-drums and keys effectively by recording just the actual keyboard playing rather than the sounds. That would then replay the sounds from the keyboard into the mixer just as if the keyboard player was there. This obviously won't work if the keyboard player's instrument is absent along with him http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif.

 

If you use audio recordings into a DAW, and to get each instrument separately into the mixer you'll need one track per instrument and at least two fro the drums (3 or 4 is probably better) so assuming your keyboard player and bassist are absent, keys player having two keyboards and you have another pre recorded you'd need 4 tracks and therefore 4 outputs on the audio interface so the Berry FCA1616 will do the job fine as it has 8 analogue outputs, it might be maxed out if the drummer was wagging it too though http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

 

The FCA is probably a decent bit of kit BTW, the preamps appear to be the Midas designed ones from the X32 range which are pretty good.

 

HTH

 

I'm not 100% sure what your after as it's not that clear to me but if your just after getting audio out of a PC running some midi software which triggers audio then you could just connect the headphone out of the PC to your desk, or better still use a di box to connect it. As to the point about muting and adjusting the tracks in the software, I can't see any way around that as you would need to ensure the PC would need to output only the audio you want to out of your PA.

 

This said I may have got the wrong end of what your after. Maybe a little more info would clear this up.

 

Your reply has got me thinking; in my naivety, I am assuming that the following could happen:

 

MIDI track 1>Synthesiser (e.g. Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth)>USB/FireWire Out>(Interface?)>Mixer Channel 1

MIDI track 2>Synthesiser>USB/FireWire Out>(Interface?)>Mixer Channel 2

MIDI track 3>Synthesiser>USB/FireWire Out>(Interface?)>Mixer Channel 3

MIDI track 4>Synthesiser>USB/FireWire Out>(Interface?)>Mixer Channel 4

Etc., etc.

 

 

But do the tracks get mixed by the Wavetable's mixer and only then outputted as audio?

 

I don't know about the wavetable synth and whether it can output separate instruments but I suspect you might be disappointed with the sounds.

 

Most DAWs will allow you to record midi and audio tracks and assign a VST instrument to each track, then the only limitation is the number of outputs your interface has (remember you need one per instrument and, ideally several for drums.

[EventMan]

 

I don't know about the wavetable synth and whether it can output separate instruments but I suspect you might be disappointed with the sounds.

 

Most DAWs will allow you to record midi and audio tracks and assign a VST instrument to each track, then the only limitation is the number of outputs your interface has (remember you need one per instrument and, ideally several for drums.

 

Yes, the Wavetable synth was just by way of illustration. I'm sure I would be using different VSTi for each sound. I have just been playing with MidiIllustrator to check that I can use other synths, which I can.

[david.elsbury]

I think the magic word is "MIDI sound module "... Will do some digging.

 

@paulears??

[sam.spoons]

If you plan to use VSTi s in the laptop then it's audio outputs you need not midi, you will need midi if you want to record the tracks from a midi keyboard rather than program them in the box.

 

A midi sound module might well be an answer but not many have more than a couple of outs these days.

 

Personally I'd be inclined to record the tracks as audio into a DAW but I'm a bit of a Luddite really.....

 

There's a chap over on the SoS forums, 'musicwolf' who does pretty much what you are planning, IIRC he performs as a duo with a live singer and the keys, bass and drums played back a DAW (all parts recorded by him). He seems to have it pretty much nailed.

[EventMan]

If you plan to use VSTi s in the laptop then it's audio outputs you need not midi, you will need midi if you want to record the tracks from a midi keyboard rather than program them in the box.

 

A midi sound module might well be an answer but not many have more than a couple of outs these days.

 

Personally I'd be inclined to record the tracks as audio into a DAW but I'm a bit of a Luddite really.....

 

There's a chap over on the SoS forums, 'musicwolf' who does pretty much what you are planning, IIRC he performs as a duo with a live singer and the keys, bass and drums played back a DAW (all parts recorded by him). He seems to have it pretty much nailed.

 

Thanks, yes. I believe that I have "thinked" my way round to that conclusion. The only problem is the integration of the music notation software, which relies on MIDI, unless I can figure out how to get Bomes to send a MIDI trigger to start the audio playback.

 

I suppose I could also consider a hardware MIDI controller/mixer such as the Korg nanoKONTROL Studio Mobile MIDI Controller, if it can be integrated into MidiIllustrator; I shall do some digging - or maybe I shall just become a hermit...!

[paulears]

Well - if your computer has decent enough software and can generate the sounds with sufficient quality - from samplers or synths, then a simple stereo audio interface will probably do for you. you have the choice of two outputs on the cheaper ones, and if you have to use one for clicks and sync stuff, that leaves you mono - which can be a bit limiting.

 

In practice, there are a few problems with mono, it's a bit on the lacking side and if what you have in the machine is a busy track, it's not easy to pick things out. You can live with it, and many bands do.

 

If you want to have each instrument on a separate track, then you need a multi channel interface, and they are not cheap. In fact, the idea of a behringer rack X32 is a cheapish way of getting 32 ins and outs - but of course it's still a large sum - but you get all the bells and whistles.

 

We're in the process of using our X32 to add in 14 tracks for a new touring project. It's going to work fine - BUT - we haven;t sorted out what to do for shows where PA is supplied like some corporates and festivals. Thoughts at the moment are that we use the X32, or perhaps buy an X32 rack, and for PA supplied gigs provide them with a L+R and 4 monitor sends (or add in our P16 mixers), but this increases changeover time. Maybe in this case, we use the x32 rack to do the mix from lots to just two or three. It gets very complicated. Maybe mono is the way to go after all!

 

This is before you (as I'm doing now) have to produce mixes that will work and that isn't easy. I'm producing tracks for this project at a frightening rate, and have to record every single part, then mix it as if it's live, then I can drop out the parts we have real humans for - it's a great idea to be able to drop parts in and out, but it gets very complicated with the equipment - maybe a simple stereo track with music ones side and click the other does work better? It's hugely simpler and less prone to failure I guess.

[EventMan]

Well - if your computer has decent enough software and can generate the sounds with sufficient quality - from samplers or synths, then a simple stereo audio interface will probably do for you. you have the choice of two outputs on the cheaper ones, and if you have to use one for clicks and sync stuff, that leaves you mono - which can be a bit limiting.

 

In practice, there are a few problems with mono, it's a bit on the lacking side and if what you have in the machine is a busy track, it's not easy to pick things out. You can live with it, and many bands do.

 

If you want to have each instrument on a separate track, then you need a multi channel interface, and they are not cheap. In fact, the idea of a behringer rack X32 is a cheapish way of getting 32 ins and outs - but of course it's still a large sum - but you get all the bells and whistles.

 

We're in the process of using our X32 to add in 14 tracks for a new touring project. It's going to work fine - BUT - we haven;t sorted out what to do for shows where PA is supplied like some corporates and festivals. Thoughts at the moment are that we use the X32, or perhaps buy an X32 rack, and for PA supplied gigs provide them with a L+R and 4 monitor sends (or add in our P16 mixers), but this increases changeover time. Maybe in this case, we use the x32 rack to do the mix from lots to just two or three. It gets very complicated. Maybe mono is the way to go after all!

 

This is before you (as I'm doing now) have to produce mixes that will work and that isn't easy. I'm producing tracks for this project at a frightening rate, and have to record every single part, then mix it as if it's live, then I can drop out the parts we have real humans for - it's a great idea to be able to drop parts in and out, but it gets very complicated with the equipment - maybe a simple stereo track with music ones side and click the other does work better? It's hugely simpler and less prone to failure I guess.

 

Hi Paul.

 

Yes, the X32 certainly would be the answer to our needs, especially with the monitoring capabilities as well. The problem, as you have gathered, is the dosh!

 

I am using MIDI files that have already been prepared by someone else, and I have put all the music tracks panned to one side and the click to the other, so it does work. The other difficulty is that I'm a full-time carer and so am doing this so that the band can rehearse in my absence, and their grasp of technology is severely lacking; hence I am exploring the options available to make it as simple as possible for them.

 

I am also hoping to learn how to run the lights off MIDI - I did say that there is a certain hobby element to this.

 

In an ideal world, I would be able to attend and not have to front the band, but concentrate, instead, on the tech side - but when you are born with a gift such as mine, what can you do?!! (Please note the tongue in my cheek). Perhaps we can find a willing "yoof" who is a wizzkid with all this.

 

I think I'm going to have to visit a real shop and have a brain-picking session there.

 

Thank you all for your input.

 

Ian

[paulears]

What software are you going to use to do the playback? Some sequencers are pretty poor at live use, others great but complicated. MIDI files worry me a bit because these rarely have any of the clever bits - I've not seen a playback device that uses MIDI files without then using a better format to control the VSTi and other gizmos? The older MIDI file players used external synths and samplers?

 

What exactly is your system?

 

I must admit to not exporting a MIDI file for years now.

 

You could run lights of MIDI too - but it's getting even more complicated. Most of the popular controls will happily take MIDI in to use as a trigger, or can do it with an add on gadget. I've never tried using something that runs on the same computer as the sequence playback - I suppose you'd output MIDI and then loop it back to the input? Although many devices take excessive control of the external audio/MIDI device - so it you are using it for playback, a software lighting package might not be able to access the same device, meaning two computers and double the snags with green users.

[sam.spoons]

Most DAWs will allow you to record the audio from the VSTis to tracks but still have a master midi track for the keyboard player (or individual midi tracks for everybody) as well. No risk of overloading the computer with multiple VSTis but you can still display the score. As Paul says a stereo output with track one side and click the other is simplest but many interfaces have enough outputs for stereo track plus click plus midi (the excellent Focusrite Pro 14 has 4x4 I/O plus midi via firewire for little more than £100, the USB scarlett 2i4 has 2x4 I/O and midi for around the same money).

[EventMan]

Most DAWs will allow you to record the audio from the VSTis to tracks but still have a master midi track for the keyboard player (or individual midi tracks for everybody) as well. No risk of overloading the computer with multiple VSTis but you can still display the score. As Paul says a stereo output with track one side and click the other is simplest but many interfaces have enough outputs for stereo track plus click plus midi (the excellent Focusrite Pro 14 has 4x4 I/O plus midi via firewire for little more than £100, the USB scarlett 2i4 has 2x4 I/O and midi for around the same money).

 

The fly in the ointment remains that the keyboard player needs to be able to follow the dots on his monitor, which is why I have set him up with MidiIllustrator (midiillustrator.com) as the sequencer, which works up to a point, but I am experiencing panning issues which I am sure the helpful people at Rallentando will assist me with. I just need to test the set-up on different hardware to make sure it's not that which is causing the issue. Unfortunately, I think I am trying to get the software to perform beyond what it was designed for, and I can't see a way to get audio tracks into its sequencer.

I am then looking to use Coolsoft's VirtualMIDISynth and a collection of SoundFonts to produce a sound that, whilst not perfect, is somewhat better than Microsoft's synth.

I was hoping to use the sounds built into the keyboard (Roland FA-08), but, by doing that, I can't (or don't know how to) give the keyboard player the ability to adjust his own instrument level in his monitor.

My only other route, I think, is to set him up with page-turning software with JPEGs or PDFs of the sheet music. That way, I can definitely go down the route of a DAW with as much audio, and MIDI control data, as I like. Then I could use an interface.

[dbuckley]

If you are happy with MidiIllustrator as a playback and dot production piece, then the only issue is how to get the audio you want, which is high quality sounds from MIDI to multiple channels into the audio desk. The easiest way to do this is to get MIDI out of the computer, and feed it to one or more MIDI modules, which one can get from eBay. The more modules (or, more accurately, module outputs) you can collect, the more control one can have from more MIDI channels. Otherwise you need multi-channel virtual synth(s) on the PC, and a way to do multi-channel audio output. A VST host that can support multi-channel ASIO sound output like Console might form the basis of such a setup.

 

I did something in some ways similar similar some years back for a production of Girls Night; I used the excellent (but no longer developed) MIDI Maestro on a PC as the MIDI playback software, an Alesis DM5 for kit, and a Korg module for most of the other sounds, as well as a couple of other modules for the odd specialist sound. Though my need was for karaoke words, rather than dots.

 

I'm still looking for a better solution with audio tracks; the Cymatic LP16 would be perfect if they'd just implement MTC and MIDI clocks.