Here we go again...

[Simon Lewis]

Stage collapse in Nanning City, China....

[kerry davies]

And again tonight news coming in of "dozens" of deaths at a nightclub fire in Bucharest that some have put down to "fireworks".

[Junior8]

27 dead 155 injured in what looks to be the old old story...

[Stuart91]

From what's been reported here it seems to be a very similar situation to the infamous Station nightclub fire.

 

"Club-goers told Digi 24 television that a spark on stage ignited some polystyrene decor. Photos posted on social media appeared to show a flame emanating from a pillar covered in foam insulation as those in the audience applauded the band."

[kerry davies]

Fire regulations are not always strictly observed in Bucharest’s clubs and restaurants, and the event was held in a former-factory-turned-club near the city centre that reportedly had just one main entrance.

 

“I have indications that the legal regulations were not respected, [and] that the ignorance of the rules and laws led to this tragedy,” said Romania’s president, Klaus Iohannis.

 

If the authorities don't enforce sensible safety regulation then it places more responsibility on us to learn how to say "No!" and mean it. One member of the band has been confirmed dead and another is in critical condition. No mention of club staff or technicians.

[Simon Lewis]

pics... although Mods I suspect this needs its own thread if it's to be objectively and sensitively discussed?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stuart91]

If the authorities don't enforce sensible safety regulation then it places more responsibility on us to learn how to say "No!" and mean it.

 

Whilst I agree with the principle and sentiment behind that statement, there will always be someone willing to say "yes".

 

One of the people involved in the aftermath of the Station nightclub fire wrote a book covering not just the incident itself but the background to it, and how all the different factors came together to make for a deadly combination on the night. All along, there were people who said "yes" without thinking about the consequences of what they were doing, but crucially the oversight from the authorities was negligent. I don't think it's an area where self-regulation can overcome the self-interest people have. We're natural optimists - what could be the harm of squeezing in a few extra people, or adding some unapproved pyro? Somewhere along the line someone will have decided it was worth taking a chance in pursuit of a more spectacular or more profitable show.

[kerry davies]

I don't think it's an area where self-regulation can overcome the self-interest people have.

If we look at that from the PoV of outdoor and major events you could not be more wrong. The enforcement authorities have never and will never have the experience and skills to regulate effectively so we ourselves wrote the book on safety in the "Pop Code" then the Event Safety Guide. They follow us and for those who weren't around back then the pattern is being repeated in the USA by the Event Safety Alliance so self-regulation does work.

 

As for self-interest my conscience is more important than my ego, my wallet or my reputation and we need to push that thought as hard as possible. The UK has undergone a major culture change in my lifetime and not for the better. Individualism and short-termism has become the societal norm and both are counter-productive in major events production. We want to do it right together so that we can do it right together next week, month, year. That doesn't apply so much to smaller events and one-offs. It is getting better slowly. I wrote my, now old, Community Safety Guide because there was a demand for it. (If anyone working in that area today wants to update it then please feel free! Just submit it to the mods.)

 

What is needed is for the few to say No! very loudly and with reasoned arguments using these awful events as evidence. I gave up on trying to change others, especially promoters, years ago. I found that sticking to my guns and refusing to endanger others left me poorer but able to sleep like a baby. There is little that can be done about amateurs who insist on playing at being professional other than raising professional standards in the most obvious way possible. There can't be many, for example, in or out of the game who have never heard of a "forklift ticket" and few inside who know nothing of Safety Passports. We need to publicise these disasters and human tragedies until they are in the forefront of everyone's mind. We need to continually educate each other and even punters to raise an alarm when emergency exits are locked, for instance. It can be done, we proved that with HSG195.

[Stuart91]

As for self-interest my conscience is more important than my ego, my wallet or my reputation and we need to push that thought as hard as possible.

 

Just to be clear, my suggestion wasn't that we should do it anyway, because if we don't someone else will. As Kerry suggests, a disreputable promoter will always find someone willing to do it. Without some sort of regulation or enforcement there will always be somebody willing to take a chance.

 

I'm sure there are plenty of sensible technicians in Bucharest who wouldn't have touched that gig. But someone ultimately did hit the button that fired the pyro we can see in the photos.

 

If we look at that from the PoV of outdoor and major events you could not be more wrong. The enforcement authorities have never and will never have the experience and skills to regulate effectively so we ourselves wrote the book on safety in the "Pop Code" then the Event Safety Guide.

 

That's a very good point about how to develop good regs. However the best guidelines in world will still be ignored if there's no clout behind them. Typically it's local councils that are imposing licence conditions etc. and certainly have enough bite when required. I worked on one event, which turned out to be unlicenced, and one of the organisers ended up getting carted away in a police van.

 

On the other hand, the situation in Bucharest (don't have flammable foam in your venue) and things like overcrowding are relatively simple to police, indeed councils have been doing that for years relatively successfully. The problem in Bucharest appears to be that there was no checks or enforcement of the existing regs.

 

 

What is needed is for the few to say No! very loudly and with reasoned arguments using these awful events as evidence. I gave up on trying to change others, especially promoters, years ago.

 

That, and education so that up and coming techs become aware of the potential consequences of what they are doing. In my late teens I put some rather sketchy rigs together because I didn't know any better. Fortunately nothing untoward happened, and a few older wiser people showed me the error of my ways. I wish forums like this had existed back then, I'd have avoided a lot of trial and error that way.

[Roderick]

Education is where it all revolves around. Too often people don't understand the risks they take when "letting a few extra people in" or firing that 'really small pyro".

We live in a world ruled by Facebook and the interweb which provides all the information you'll ever need, problem is that very few people can actually interpret the information provided by Google.

 

The question that I fear most at the moment is; "What do I need to do to comply?" My answer to that is that if you have to ask what you have to do to comply, you shouldn't be in this business. Compliance is the starting point when it comes to safety, not the target. Every production, event, gathering, etc. MUST start with compliance and then improve from there. The regulations people refer to as 'compliance' are so broad and cover so many facets that inevitably things are overlooked but most likely miss out where two 'compliance' issues meet.

 

For example in both the Bucharest and the Station fires neither the pyro's, polystyrene nor overcrowding killed anyone, it was the combination of the three that was lethal. And whilst you may argue that flammable materials are not allowed in UK or many countries public venues, I don't know if that is actually the case in Romania. Similarly, overcrowding only really becomes a problem when there is a panic situation. I am quietly confident that 99% of nightclubs will be overcrowded on a regular basis. Unless there is an emergency, you won't see it on the front page the next day.

 

So now we have a situation where the FoH manager let's in a few extra people to make up for a bad night last week (probably done that several times before without any issue), the technical manager allows for pyro's to be fired in the venue, probably been done before, unaware that the maintenance supervisor contracted a builder who used cheap polystyrene rather than rated materials to improve the sound containment.

None of them would in their wildest dreams realise that their actions contributed to people not going home.

 

That is why you need sound risk management strategies that actually address all scenarios of an action. Looking at items in isolation, which so often happens to meet compliance, is not enough and will lead to things like this continue to happen. But don't become a 'jobs worth' simply because it is easier. Do your homework, look at it from all angles with the aim to find a solution, not just reject it because that is simplest. The 'jobs worth' is the biggest risk to safety in any industry simply because people get fed up with rejections and find sneaky ways around serious matters that now create a bigger risk.

 

Do your homework, find a solution by involving everyone so that everyone understands why things are a certain way and stick to it. Maybe then we'll have some hope but I am not holding my breath.

[Brian]

And whilst you may argue that flammable materials are not allowed in UK or many countries public venues,...

 

"Not allowed" and "Not used" are two very different things. I'd put a months money on 50% of venues holding a premises licence not complying with the terms in the licence, especially with regard to fire safety.

[Stuart91]

I'd put a months money on 50% of venues holding a premises licence not complying with the terms in the licence, especially with regard to fire safety.

 

Proof if proof was needed that it can go very wrong in venues in this country.

[Junior8]

I'd put a months money on 50% of venues holding a premises licence not complying with the terms in the licence, especially with regard to fire safety.

 

Sadly I suspect you are right - given the number of obstructed and even locked fire exits I've come across in shops and like places. I think a lot of it, though, is down to people not being indoctrinated correctly. Example. I was helping out at a venue where a fire exit gives out to a small courtyard and then to the street. There is a lockable gate which has to be unlocked while the public are in the building. Looking round a few weeks back I found the gate yes unlocked but not fully open and with the padlock simply hanging open on the bracket! Naturally I latched the gate back to the wall but took the lock into the front of house crew and asked them to guess what they'd done wrong...you're right. It had never occurred to them that some helpful passer-by (or worse) might see the open gate and assume they were being helpful by closing it and locking it! (Before you ask there was no facility as far as I could see for locking the gate open and of course the courtyard was being used for storage...

[Robin D]

The two things that bug me when talking to people about venue safety are:

• Many people look at it in the cold light of day. What happens when all the lights are out, you open the fire doors, and its dark, cold and wet outside?
  
• There seems little recognition that people are there to have a good time. Often that means some, if not many, will have been drinking or imbibing other substances that cause them to not think rationally. You really have to consider that you might need to get many zombies out and away from the building in a hurry.
  

 

I've also been surprised at the aggressive reaction of some staff when challenging the fact that fire exits are locked or obstructed. One venue I was in recently had all the flight cases from the sound equipment neatly stacked in the main exit corridor from the stage! On querying it, I was told, that they will be gone an hour after the show!

[pmiller056]

A few years ago I was in a pub to see some friends playing in a band. A lot of non-band clutter was around in the wrong places. Some gentle asking of the bar staff on the night indicated that it was not worth their job to do anything about it. The venue was part of a chain of similar pubs/venues. The next day a quick search on the companies house website for contact details and names was followed by a polite phone call to the company director responsible for health and safety. The response from head office was very swift. Within two days, the venue was much tidier and the local management and staff were much more interested in the well being of their customers. Fortunately things continued this way until the venue was sold a few years later. In this case, going straight to the top (admittedly after the event) was very effective.